Linas, 25 Jul 2016as far as I know TSMC always was inferior quality chips and every time there were issue with i... moreIncorrect. When TSMC made 16nm, they made it with 16nm FET + 16nm fin pitch, that's true 16nm. Samsung on the other hand half assed their node and rushed it to the market calling it "14nm" when it used 14nm FETs + 20nm fin pitch, that's not true 14nm (should be called 20nm or half assed 14nm). Hence the 16nm TSMC node is superior to Samsung's 14nm. My company makes microcontroller chips with TSMC 16nm and Samsung 14nm but all our clients prefer TSMC due to better performance and lower power consumption.
This is about business strategy. By keeping the supply chain diverse, Apple is ensuring no single supplier will get leverage against Apple. Since only Samsung can supply OLEDs, they had to drop something, lest they become vulnerable to Samsung interests.
As for performance, even IF Samsung SoCs had a performance advantage over TSMC SoCs, Apple's architecture and optimization is so far ahead that they can afford it. I'm an Android guy, but i can appreciate good engineering work.
Linas, 25 Jul 2016as far as I know TSMC always was inferior quality chips and every time there were issue with i... moreTSMC owns 70% of worlds contract semiconductor market. Break open any electronic device (including Samsung devices) that you have ever owned in your entire life, you will find at least 70% of the chips is made by TSMC. You don't dominate the market for the past 30 years by being inferior.
Fact is in 2015 Apple "chipgate" incidence. Samsung manufactured 14nm A9 was found to burn more power as compared to TSMC 16nm A9, with no appreciable difference in performance. Furthermore, Samsung suffered from yield problems which made the chips extremely expensive for Apple. Samsung had to lower their price to keep Apple's business.
Due to new INFO-WLP technology which significantly shrink chip packaging and the above reason, Apple has rumored to give 100% A10 and possibly A11 business to TSMC.
Apple is paying TSMC nearly $4 Billion USD per year for semiconductor chips. They are not trying to save money here.
AnonD-1825, 20 Jul 2016"Are apple this desperately threatened by Samsung , as to place inferior parts in their phones... moreas far as I know TSMC always was inferior quality chips and every time there were issue with iphones, it has always been with the ones equipped with TSMC chips. Be clear apple only did it to save money, not to improve quality.
anything12394, 20 Jul 2016please provide the evidence of your statement, how much is an iphone cost exactly?Well as neither of us work for Apple, that is going to be impossible, yes?
Lets look at the inverse: prove how they use the cheapest parts....
The reality is they have a total cost / parts bill that we consumers will never understand.
Sure part of it is Research and Development.
Yes, we know that with the Apple Watch they moved their markup to an all time high (won't quote the exact amount, but it was a few percent different to all their items previously),..
I won't argue that the cost of parts that goes into any phone is a tiny fraction of what the ultimate price is that we pay...
But lets be logical...
Massive volume sales brings part prices down.
Apple has the sort of buying power that allows them to negotiate some pretty great 'deals'.
If a person interested in technology chooses to use the Internet to research the parts selected by manufacturers the info is out there, and findable.
I know the tablet I write this on uses a timing controller chip likely modified from a high end Apple monitor.
This modified part has a higher model number than the part in the Apple monitor, suggesting that the modification was a beef up rather than a reduction in functionality (which might make the part cheaper).
My screen can drop to 15Hz refresh rate, say, reading a webpage and can push 5.6million pixels in a high colour format to the screen. Whilst the screen also has a digitiser that can ramp up the sampling rate for input to 240Hz... These are cost add ons.
To the average consumer, a 12" screen is a 12" screen, and they might compare the number of pixels, but that is about it.
Some 'more educate' consumers might go so far as to check whether it is IPS/MVA/OLED etc, but, as manufacturers who play the spec sheet marketing game realise WHAT the consumer is considering.. they have a range of ways to 'fool' them.
Take IPS screens.
A good way to tell if we had an IPS screen (back in the day when it mattered) was to look at the viewing angle 176degrees, was a standard screen, 178 degrees was an In Plane Shifting (IPS) screen. (Two gates per pixel to switch, higher power consumption, slower switch speed, dead pixels 'off')
IPS screens had the best colour.
People started to only want IPS (which were `10% of screen models available to consumers).
So a few years ago, manufacturers started pairing IPS screens with 6bit processing chips.
The difference with six bit rather than eight bit processing was how the colours got rendered to screen.
Six bit worked with less than three hundred thousand colours and then 'guessed' their way up to 16 million. Generally listed as 16.2 million colours.
True eight bit was 16.7 million colours. (So now we know to look for IPS (178degree viewing angle), 16.7 million colours)
I own several six bit monitors, some in the flavour of IPS, and I have one of the best TN (twisted Neumatic, ala mass market) screens available.
The six bit IPS shits all over the exceptional TN panel. If you have an eye for colour.
Most consumers don't see the benefit of accurate colour.
As a gamer, I ran through the opening dungeon in Oblivion hundreds of times, creating new characters.
I borrowed an IPS panel from work one day to see the difference against the best in class TN panel, and I couldn't believe the difference....
A ruby buried in the mud on the floor that I had missed countless times was red on the brown floor. On 'cheaper units'/inferior screens it was quite easy to miss.
The purple colour of the Presto screen is vastly different across the GFs iPad Air 2, my iPad Pro, and my calibrated loungeroom plasma. As well as the Top tier Sammy LCD in my daughters room, and the $10k projector in the theatre room. And the neutral profile of my Note Edge. Purple can be a pretty obvious one to see the difference in,.. but for seeing the difference between six bit and eight bit; the alpha channel / white(greys) of say a rocket trail in a first person shooter game make things clear pretty quickly.
As a gamer I have gone back to IPS and OLED screen.. sure OLED has fast refresh rate, but I would still take a quality IPS over the best TN for a slow paced game. (Competitive shooters I prefer the 120Hz of a great gaming monitor as I have the rig to run games north of 80frames per second with ultra details)
So why this rant with regards to Apple price markups?
Because I cannot tell the level of tech education of the average reader on these forums..
You know, the ones who will come here to try and learn a little about a prospective purchase.
When the tech heads here, mostly android users, dismiss Apple for high prices because Apple refuse to play the spec sheet bragging rights game (instead hiding all their benefits- just part of the Apple experience; focusing on the using of their products), they give cause for techies to consider the Apple part so 'last year'. Eg dual core CPU.
Just know that Apple are creating chip teams to customise the silicon in very specific ways, not to 'save cost' but to achieve more.
Hence why a dual core A9 chip holds itself well against other designs.
Apple, having control over all things software and hardware DO make products that are superior to what the spec sheet might sound like.
Classic examples is screen reflectance.
They know what creates fatigue for the user when using a piece of technology (with a screen),.. and they have some of the best reflection reduction on the market.
This allows much easier viewing, better contrast, better range of places to use their product etc.
To the typical Android fan who thinks Apple is 'overpriced'?! Their screen is so low res compared to my 3 million pixel 5" screen. Who freakin cares!
The Apple screen is easy to look at, bright, of high quality with regards to colour/contrast etc, has an OS optimised to make the screen filled with smooth, well gradated colour, at a high refresh rate, behind a tough glass and at a DPI (dots per inch) which is unresolvable to the human eye.
They target real world usage, not spec bragging rights. Doesn't make their part cheaper just because the average joe (no offence Joes' of the world) cannot see the R&D and component selection that makes the outcome happen.
What I know, for fact, is that there are a tonne of parts in the tablet I write this on, that add much cost but no 'spec', that make it a better part. eg strengthening battery life.
Apples design consideration is for building parts that last a long time. This, I believe is an ethical need for our planet right now.
But, if we want to look at the total cost of ownership, sure, Apple having retail chains and repair/service centres (I've never visited one) is something a lot of other manufacturers don't offer.
The quality of included apps is high.
But, for anyone who sees me dotted around GSM, talking about the initial 'hit' of say 25% price higher on an Apple laptop over what would be equivalent spec PC part, is actually paid for very quickly... two things; higher than average industry reliability (always seem to be in the top three from the many many charts I have looked at), and much lower deployment cost and ongoing cost. (Universities might have one Apple technician to maintain ten computing labs, but required three PC techs to maintain just a couple of labs, sure I don't have a link to reports like these,.. but I am not a fan to any company, and I am just trying to quote what is considered generally true in the industry, and is a fact I have read on more than a few occasions)
IFixit does breakdowns. They estimate cost. If it matters to you, tell me some numbers.
I don't really care, cause whilst numbers can lie, physical parts do not.
I have seen with my own eyes, by investigation, and through using, that Apple products are premium. I don't care for bragging or looking cool.
But when I research my needs I often find it is only the Apple part that is built to the standard I would accept.
As consumers we vote with our dollars.
If we constantly buy knockoff parts, that are designed to be cheap but sound cool, that is what will eventually fill the market.
Like what we have had happen in the last sixteen months or so.
So lets try to remain cool calm and collected and acknowledge that our own needs might not be the needs of another, and that Apple do fill a niche.
Anonymous, 20 Jul 2016Man alive. Are apple this desperately threatened by Samsung , as to place inferior parts in th... moreWell apparently they got the US military to claim that the US designed iPhone is better than the Korean Samsung. When they failed to highlight the fact they were comparing a note2 to the latest iPhone out. Pretty clear that either Apple is sponsoring the military, or that the US is simply trying to promote American brands.
Its amazing that Samsung has become so pervasive in the US despite that, and currently selling more galaxy s7 than Apple is selling iPhone 6s.
Anonymous, 20 Jul 2016Man alive. Are apple this desperately threatened by Samsung , as to place inferior parts in th... more"Are apple this desperately threatened by Samsung , as to place inferior parts in their phones just to try to topple Samsung"
Those parts aren't inferior. Apple is actually impressed how good TSMC chips are. Half of the 6s chips already came from TSMC and second half from Samsung. So this makes lot of sense.
Man alive. Are apple this desperately threatened by Samsung , as to place inferior parts in their phones just to try to topple Samsung. It can't be money , the greedy animals already have enough of it to sell all their wares at cost price, forever, and live of the countless billions of interest. I suppose Samsung making better phones, better looking phones and with that story about the americans putting Samsung above apple in reliability, ( Funney, the timing of THIS story, just before the NEW american apple conquering new Galaxy Note 7 .)the only trick left is sabotage, as controling the media, obviously hasn't worked now has it. Well they could get what they deserve here....watching.
Anonymous, 20 Jul 2016That doesn't change a thing....was it supposed to? Yes.
The reason I asked "what is your excuse?", is that you are reading an Apple news thread..
Most Apple users are just happy out in the wild using their iDevices. (Not reading Android news threads with intent to create flame wars)
No doubt a few Apple loyalists try to convince haters of why their iDevices are the best thing since sliced bread.
I agree no point in doing that.
Technologists on the Internet have no need for devices that just work and might cost a slight premium (a once off cost mind you).
Technologists can tinker and troubleshoot and run custom mods and love having the best sounding specs bragging rights.
If you read my post (which I hope you did, as it is a forum and we come here to read and learn) I suggested that we should all just learn to get along.
I am no brand loyalist to any company (though I have always respected Asus environmental policies).
My post was not drawn out.. or if so, I am sorry you have issues reading forum posts; why hang out in forums then?
Anti Apple? Why read Apple relevant news?!
You disagree with my comments, yet cannot call me out as a fan, as my comments are non biased, open, and based 'in reality'. (Otherwise you would have dismissed me aggressively no doubt)
You log in as Anonymous? Are you aware this suggests you are the type of person who trolls? Generally people who don't belong to forums and or are transients..
Flip side- Who am I?
I have researched technology extensively for well greater than twenty years. This is what I do for a living. I give purchasing advice and tech support.
I find the clients I advise to buy Apple, I generally set up their hardware/software once, the only further contact I have with them is 'smiles and greets' in passing on the street.
PC users, I see them every four to six months (troubleshooting and support)
Total cost of ownership for the Apple user is 25% initial hit cost over cheaper less reliable PC part. Which then runs flawlessly without support and is a non interuptive experience for the user.
PCs that cost less?
Either need warranty support (all work lost), or constant maintenance.
Sure I am talking the 'average user',.. but truth is Apple ends up costing less, and working much better. No downtime, in an ecosystem where they don't have to constantly fight with the PC.
With regards my comment here, about Apple selecting the parts that meet their needs, and intimating that they customise premium builds, is based on reality.
I understand the difference between DDR4 ram. Yes The Note 5 had it first. So what.... doesn't stop it being a premium part when utilised in an Apple product.
I don't care who comes to market first! Especially if the concept is poorly executed.
I do like reading about tech progress,.. and I do like seeing things utilised well.
Hence my comments here with regards to Apple.
Cause as my posts here have said,.. the non representative cross section of an Internet forum, made up of technologists happy to service their own parts/install custom roms etc,.. are not the typical world user of mass market tech.
Apple do mass market tech well.
End of story, yes?
Why Apple having TSMC manufacture A11 chips is reason for you to pull apart my opinions, I am not sure.. that you disagree with me is clear.
Educate me, sure.
But if my comments are falling on deaf ears, and you expect me to listen to you- is that how you have garnered all your information?
Is that your method for widening your viewpoint,.. cause that doesn't give me much incentive to believe you have much to offer on the topic..
As I said.. let's all get along..
I am not here to be a fanboy.
But I am happy to try and keep consumers on track.
Supplemental technology for their life,.. the reason many might read a page like GSM arena: to make sense of what is unfolding the in technology world.
As this is an area that I earn my crust and can be called a professional,.. I give my opinion (free) here.
I do recall an old adage that an opinion is worth about as much as it cost, in this case being given free, doesn't make it very valuable.
However, when the Android fan base tries so hard to sway people to their way of thinking, without caring for the needs of the individual they are helping, then it is often not the right advice.
Like it or not,.. Apple have done wonders for 'smart phones'.
I recall the browser speed on the first iPhone vs my HTC Touch Pro 2.
I thought my device was king (technically it was), and I knew how to use it...
But the day I was working business machines in Officeworks, and I saw a webpage lookup on an iPhone- it ran rings around my device.
Sure not for all things: I could dictate SMS and send them without pulling my phone out of my pocket: but I was an advanced user who ran custom roms..
This iPhone user, whilst scared of technology: enjoyed their iPhone.
Different strokes for different blokes.
Whilst I have no interest in iPhones (I like low SAR values), they do meet the needs of many
Anonymous, 20 Jul 2016Wow. All I can say is wow.....what an exhaustively exaggerated overly drawn out jumble of bs.
... moreCheck in all the time. Familiar with all platforms..
Arguably, the reason I read threads like this is to watch and learn.... whats your excuse?
AnonD-367917, 20 Jul 2016Completely false Back to front actually. If you could understand just how wrong that state... moreplease provide the evidence of your statement, how much is an iphone cost exactly?
AnonD-367917, 20 Jul 2016Yes; good of them to take the best parts available when building their concepts.
Not verbat... moreWow. All I can say is wow.....what an exhaustively exaggerated overly drawn out jumble of bs.
You really need a reality check
AnonD-367917, 20 Jul 2016From what I have read by people who understand the fabrications Sammy 14nm is basically the sa... moreI remember the processor issue where TSMC's 16nm iphone soc was actually better than samsung's 14nm. Also samsung making their own custom processor now maybe that's why apple dont want its secrets leaking to a competitor.
Anonymous, 19 Jul 2016Apple will always go with the cheaper option to increase profit.Completely false
Back to front actually.
If you could understand just how wrong that statement is you might understand part of the cost breakdown of Apple products.
But enjoy your 6Gb ram 'smartphone'
AnonD-404798, 19 Jul 2016camera sensor and battery is made by SONY.
storage made by SAMSUNG and HYNIX .
RAM is ma... moreYes; good of them to take the best parts available when building their concepts.
Not verbatim; Apple/Jobs(?) said that the original iPhone was awaiting the right parts to become available, it wouldn't have been available (at the right size or consumer cost?), the year before that.. if I recall correctly, battery capacity/size was an important metric (as much as screen/processor etc).
They enjoy designing a great product with parts available.
They spend where necessary to build things meant to last.
The iPad I write this one has a really expensive layer to the screen that allows it 'hold a charge' 'drop the refresh rate really low to save battery.
This is a big part cost that will not net them any extra bragging rights, but does add up to the user experience.
They don't go toe to toe with spec sheets at the average consumer is too easily manipulated by spec sheets numbers, often that are irrelevant, or like the white belt karate student who thinks they can fight, do worse for the little knowledge they have..
(For example? Sure: My 'dual core' tablet has a six core video chip built in, each combined of two units, each with 32 'shaders' effectively (6x2x32). All on a crazy fast bus, paired up with high speed memory and high speed storage. In any other tablet, they would most likely never be utilised properly, but as Apple build the custom OS, it can make all sorts of things be parrallel computed by the dual core SoC. In fact the video part of the SoC is 3x bigger than the hyper fast dual core CPU area of the chip. Apples control of all things hardware and software is why they have such phenomenal battery life and capability from such 'low spec (sounding) parts. They would simply list a 'dual core' CPU. Sounds so 'late noughties')
They do use custom controllers and do modify existing chip designs. They are the equivalent of Video Game Console efficiency vs high end PC brute force.
My Android phone is the brute force approach. It has poor battery life and unreliable performance, suffers inconsistent upgrades (they don't build the OS), and will never likely be utilised fully. (Better to release newer unit that gets 'new software features').
If a company is willing to let its profit margins fall by aligning with industry partners who have patents and cutting edge tech... DO IT! I would rather pay more money for a true premium device.
As iOS opens up more features (stably and optimised), Android goggle wearing types who cannot see nought but what they look for (blinkers on, missing the Forrest for the trees), might have to reconsider whether iOS and future Apple hardware might have parts that meet their needs.
Apple will do alright without them, cause whilst on the net, tech types rule supreme.. in the 'real world' they are the exception, not the rule.
The average punter wants an easy to use reliable phone. As does business. As do children. As do wives, and, as a techie,.. sometimes I just want a product that works...
But, how about we all just get along..
For those who think that Android offers so much more for the smartphone experience, consider iDevices the product that introduces laymen to technology.
A gateway tech device if you wish.
Problem is, once the ease of iOS is learned (took me a coupe of days, and I had to read articles, given I had avoided iOS for years), kinda no motivation to suffer anything else.
I wholeheartedly think iTunes should be burned to disc, put in a rocket and fired at the sun, .. but there are many ways around it... and iOS, whilst it started out as a supplementary OS, needing to be setup with a computer... is now completely capable of running independently and doing everything a very wide range of users might need, or want.
All opinions of iOS based on pre iOS9 are basically outdated.
My machine multitasks like a champ, does things I never though iOS could do (and is getting better; enjoying iOS10!!)
WTFDYJS, 20 Jul 2016Well of course Apple would use tsmc to manufacture their chipsets because of the decline of Ap... moreUnit sales are in decline. (! Actually good reason for this)
As most users can continue to use their parts for long lifespans.
iPad 2 in my house is still very relevant...
When the market veterans talk about Apple tablet sales etc, they generally acknowledge that as obsolescence isn't the direction of the company, these parts have very long lives.
And therefore they don't get to resell the same product over and over again to their fans.
(I know more people who have owned nearly every generation of Samsung S series)
(I still have my first gen S, but did offer a friend the fairly legendary S 2 I has sitting around).
I recall how much I wanted an S4, but then the S5 offering waterproofing....
True, many Apple loyalists, being a high cost part, are from upper socio economic tiers, or wish to be seen that way, and buy new models, near religiously... but they are not the most part of the Apple audience.. the issue being the Apple audience is huge and as with any diversity in user base, most personality types are included; zealots to grandmas.
With iOS 10 setting a reasonable hardware minimum, we have our first time 'forced hardware upgrade' to those who want to stay current (which iOS 10 might just make people do).
I bet after iOS 10 comes out, especially if it launches with a device with a feature not seen before on Apple hardware (eg waterproofing); we will see MASSIVE unit sales.
Might be a great time to buy Apple shares.
Though their share price has likely already taken a bump after the US military announcement with regards to reliability of Android vs iOS... that carries weight in the general publics eyes, especially if they only read the article heading...