Personally I'm really hoping the 808 Pureview 1/1.2" 41mp sensor resurfaces at some point.
Anonymous, 02 Nov 2017"Post a review that shows this. The best I've seen are claims that it was coming close to brid... moreAlso about your comments on monochrome secondary camera modules:
You literally only posted reviews comparing two separate smartphone cameras. I could similarly claim that single-lens cameras are useless because the Huawei Mate 10 takes far better photographs than any of the single-lens solutions out there. It's not comparable.
If you want to compare, you'll need module X working on its own compared to Module X working in tandem with a monochrome sensor and its computational imaging solutions.
Again, I'll paste some reading for you on how the secondary monochrome sensor works and why it's highly useful:
"A close look at the Huawei P9's dual-lens camera"
"Here's how the Huawei P9's dual-camera system works"
"Can the Huawei P10's 'Leica-style' portraits beat the iPhone 7 Plus?"
"What relevance does a monochrome sensor hold in a dual camera sensor?"
These are the technical explanations for what purpose the monochrome sensor fills, and how it works in practice. Essentially, the monochrome sensor can capture higher detail, wider dynamic range, experiences less highlight clipping and is far more photosensitive. It also adds the benefit of 3D depth sensing, as with other secondary sensors. It's input is combined with the RGB sensor input, with the end-result being a far better output image than you could get by just having the RGB sensor on its own.
I don't know how I can make this any clearer to you.
Anonymous, 02 Nov 2017"Post a review that shows this. The best I've seen are claims that it was coming close to brid... moreIt was on par in good lighting conditions where no extra features such as zoom was required.
I'm not saying the 808 PureView was a bad camera. It still blows modern smartphones out of the water in many aspects. But miniature camera modules can never compete with dedicated cameras. They don't have the sensor size advantage, dedicated imaging chip advantage, massive lens advantage, etc. Smartphone cameras can be made well, but you seem to be claiming that smartphone camera modules can somehow outperform thousands of imaging engineers and violate the laws of physics. That's just not happening.
FinnishInquisition, 24 Oct 2017"Yes, as I said smartphone cameras can be better than dedicated cameras. Even the Nokia 808 be... more"Post a review that shows this. The best I've seen are claims that it was coming close to bridging the gap."
I remember several reviews where Nokia 808 was on par with or beat the compact cameras.
"No, because even with the specifications you stated you'd fall far short of the sensors, lenses and software that the dedicated cameras ship with."
No, because if manufacturers wanted to make a phone with the specifications I stated, they could make it.
"Those weren't facts, those were made up statements by you."
Yes, I said the facts. Read the real world reviews. They prove that monochrome cameras are useless.
You proved again your ignorance. You obviously haven't read a single article on the subject, so I greatly suggest you start by doing that. You keep arguing here despite you're ignorant and you don't know what you're talking about.
Anonymous, 26 Oct 2017Great talk.
Thank you for mentioning about the bokeh and telephoto effects in which I wasn't ... moreI respect your opinion Sir. While comparing Nokia's algo with that of LG's in Wide Angle photography, I meant Nokia was already providing a wide screen solution without cropping much. I didn't say it could beat a proper wide angle lens, but a real wide angle lens seams useless to me, atleast when you have the pano mode around.
HTC One M7 had a 4 megapixel sensor. Just '4'. Thats lower than a iPhone 4 or even a Nokia N95. Infact, you need to use both of them simultaneously to reach a conclusion, that in some daylight situations, One M7 was ONLY MARGINALLY better than N97 in terms of Image quality. Otherwise, N97 could produce equally good images. Low Light was M7's forte, but again, don't expect much from a 4MP sensor. Only good for viewing on a small screen like the phone itself. And that preserved quality was so much limited, that you could see the artifacts on a HTC One Max, having Same Resolution but a bigger screen. It was truly overhyped and therefore was mistaken as a higher resolution camera. Obviously it failed for the same reason.
People use smartphones cameras. I live them. I am not a fanboy, and neither do I deny the good, but people need to understand what's bad in order to raise the bar. Market is right now, sort of, saturated with quantity of phones. There was a time, when spending Rs 30K INR, you were limited to a few phones by Samsung or HTC or Apple. Now you have more than 50 smartphones in any budget. Even flaghsips are in 20s. But the overall quality leaves a lot to be desired. Only if people were a bit more sensible, there market'd have served with quality. Many brands like Oppo and Vivo claim to be a customers true friends, but they are the opposite. They are helping create a fake world. People are more satisfied with how beautiful they look rather how original they look. A true camera isn't about Beauty+ 2.0 bullshit. A true camera shows pimples where thay are, beautiful frackles untouched, the depth of skin. The following of software tricked cameras is more than what there was of Apple a few years ago.
AnonD-50024, 23 Oct 2017I hope everybody reads this!
I am an avid reader who loves GSMA articles. I am not here to ... moreGreat talk.
Thank you for mentioning about the bokeh and telephoto effects in which I wasn't aware much of (especially that it gave real bokeh effects).
But, I somehow disagree with you when it comes to monochrome and wide angle photography
Well, also monochrome may not be made great with Huawei for better resolution, higher sensors weren't made HTC One M7 as a great camera device because they weren't made properly yet, but again this can only be seen with time.
Also I do believe that there is a niche who just love black and white photographs and deserves to have some ( but not all )phones to have monochrome phones.
About wide angel, look at camera reviews of Nokia 808 and LG G5 :
You may notice how the LG G5 capture more area than Nokia 808 even though they were taken from the same space, but I agree that accessories may be enough.
Sorry for replying late.
AnonD-392500, 25 Oct 20174k screen, super slomo video, weak front facing stereo speakers are also pointless needs.And so the near bezel design.
Anonymous, 24 Oct 2017Perfect comment. Multiple camera systems are totally useless, ridiculous and gimmick and ru... more4k screen, super slomo video, weak front facing stereo speakers are also pointless needs.
Anonymous, 24 Oct 2017Yes, as I said smartphone cameras can be better than dedicated cameras. Even the Nokia 808 be... more"Yes, as I said smartphone cameras can be better than dedicated cameras. Even the Nokia 808 beat a lot of standalone cameras."
Post a review that shows this. The best I've seen are claims that it was coming close to bridging the gap.
"And the phone with a camera that I described in my previous comment would be much better even than the Nokia 808."
No, because even with the specifications you stated you'd fall far short of the sensors, lenses and software that the dedicated cameras ship with.
"I also said the facts about the monochrome camera."
Those weren't facts, those were made up statements by you. Read this article to start grasping how monochrome cameras work in an array, and why computational photography is the future of smartphone cameras:
You obviously haven't read a single article on the subject, so I greatly suggest you start by doing that. Right now you're spreading ignorant statement after ignorant statement, and I won't even bother dissecting that in an argument.
Anonymous, 24 Oct 2017They said compact cameras and to a degree they are right. Because most won't have such a wide ... moreNo, they said DEDICATED cameras. That includes anything from DSLR's to compact cameras, and is the most blatantly false claim I've ever seen.
Secondly it's not just about aperture. Even the smallest compact cameras have far larger and higher quality sensors and lenses than you could ever dream of fitting into a smartphone. We're talking about sensors that are at least 2-56 times as large at the same megapixel count. Even the Lumia 1020 sensor was less half the size of the smallest compact camera sensors.
AnonD-707763, 23 Oct 2017that's quite an epistle bro. Nice write up anyway.Interesting... I thought I was the only one not into the dual camera hype..
FinnishInquisition, 24 Oct 2017It's honestly rather outrageous to claim a smartphone camera, with its severe limitations in s... moreYes, as I said smartphone cameras can be better than dedicated cameras. Even the Nokia 808 beat a lot of standalone cameras. And the phone with a camera that I described in my previous comment would be much better even than the Nokia 808.
I just said the facts about the consumers.
"I think consumers know the functionality is more important than wafer-thin looks."
Your thinking is wrong. Consumers used to think functionality is more important. That was 5-10 years ago. Today the vast majority of consumers care only about the looks (they want useless glass unibody, shiny, curved, thin phones).
I also said the facts about the monochrome camera. I believe only in the facts of the real world. Reviews prove that the monochrome camera in phones is uselss and do not help in low light. Even if it would help, nobody would take black and white photos. And mixing the results from the monochrome and the RGB camera, results in fake, artificial, inaccurate, overprocessed colors, which defeats the already non-existent purpose of the monochrome camera. (And some areas of the photos remain black and white (as seen in reviews)). And if the RGB camera is worse in low light, it's colors would also be wrong. You get a messy photo.
FinnishInquisition, 24 Oct 2017It's honestly rather outrageous to claim a smartphone camera, with its severe limitations in s... moreThey said compact cameras and to a degree they are right. Because most won't have such a wide aperture. Though the aperture on the compact one is obviously going to be more versatile.
But in focus, ease of use, medium and lowlight the phone could have quite a large lead
Anonymous, 24 Oct 2017That's nonsense. Smartphone photography can be better than dedicated cameras. If phones had la... moreIt's honestly rather outrageous to claim a smartphone camera, with its severe limitations in size, can compete against proper cameras with Four Thirds, APS-X and full frame sensors and large interchangeable lenses. Smartphone camera systems can be decent, but even the Nokia 808 and 1020 were lightyears away from standalone cameras.
Most smartphones have actually been getting thicker year over year since they reached their thinnest measurements of 7 mm. I think consumers know the functionality is more important than wafer-thin looks. You're needlessly insulting consumers.
And if you don't think a monochrome sensor helps in low-light photography you actually don't have a clue about camera technology or photography. Monochrome sensors can be over 4 times more light sensitive as they don't have to be divided into RGB subpixels, in addition to a bunch of other advantages. Did you never wonder why night cameras always have monochrome sensors?
If you then use the monochrome sensor for details and noise reduction and apply the colours from the RGB sensor, you'll be getting FAR higher quality output than a single comparable module could achieve.
AnonD-50024, 24 Oct 2017Perhaps I missed writing this:
Monochrome can help the major sensor absolutely, but here ar... moreLarger sensors would require thicker phones, which doesn't sell as well. Perhaps we'll see another outlier like the 808 one day, but the odds are small.
And the monochrome sensor is well over 4 times as light sensitive, in addition to having other benefits such as being higher detailed and experiencing less highlight clipping. They're absolutely a valuable addition to a smartphone camera system. Especially when used in conjunction with an RGB-sensor for computational imaging.
Nokia pure view is an obvious outlier and should have been removed from the data, or shown in separation to the normal data.
All mobile phone cameras will be pretty us less until poxy "designers" are thrown out of the development circle,as pointed out early in article,your not going to see much improvement until sensor size goes up..
It's impossible to do anything until that problem is corrected,like computers,rubbish in =rubbish out,same with cameras,not enough light gathered =crap pictures,you can muck about with software to try and improve things,but why bother,just make a bigger sensor and lens assembly and oh look,half decent pictures that don't need so much software boosting..
Users are being held to ransom by poxy "designers",we can only buy what is offered to us,which at the moment means stupidly thin phones that bend,crippled with small inadequate batteries and small camera modules,all because poxy "designers" have decided that normal people can't cope with a device more than 12 mm thick,and yet very few people had any trouble using devices 25+mm thick just a few years ago.
Burn all "designers",a us less bunch of envelope scribblers that would be more useful used as temporary street light ornaments,we need a campaign to start forcing device makers to build what WE want/need,not what they want to offer us,any maker that thinks I'm going to pay £700 for a device that only does half that I want/need it to is going to wait a long time for my money, if I can't buy a premium priced device that is exactly what I want,my money will go on budget devices,slightly worse performance but at a quarter of the price..
Stuff poxy designers and the poxy firms that allow them to dominate our choice..
AnonD-50024, 23 Oct 2017I hope everybody reads this!
I am an avid reader who loves GSMA articles. I am not here to ... morePerfect comment.
Multiple camera systems are totally useless, ridiculous and gimmick and ruin the potential performance/development of the main camera.
Probably the reason why manufacturers created the dual camera trend is that they have to create something new in every year to differentiate their new devices from the predecessors, and it's easier and cheaper to create useless gimmicks like dual camera than to create real development in single camera quality.
The other reason is that 1" sensor on a smartphone would kill the purpose of point-and-shoot or any other proper compact digital cameras' purpose and would drag down the sales of them. It's a worldwide conspiracy among manufacturers (this happens all the time in capitalism). So they purposely won't use proper camers in phones. And that's why the Panasonic deliberately disabled/blocked the phone call function in CM10.
The third reason is that it would increase the thickness of the phone and the primitive consumers want thinness instead. The primitive people prefer looks over features and usefulness. Or the manufacturers purposely created the dumb "thinnes" trend, so they can sell phones by looks instead of usefulness. It's easier and cheaper to change the design of the phones every year and bring up new bullshits like curved edges than to create useful and cutting-edge features like 1" camera sensor in phones. They can psychologically / artificially create an "obsoleted" feeling for people if the new phone have different looks than the predecessor from last year.
This is the capitalism and planned obsolescence and brainwashing. Artificially creating pointless needs (problems then solutions for them), for example the dual camera, curved edges, 18:9 screen, ... So they can resell the slightly different, but basically the same (no real improvements) devices in every year.
FinnishInquisition, 23 Oct 2017Everyone knows smartphone photography can't compete with proper cameras. Nobody insinuates suc... moreThat's nonsense. Smartphone photography can be better than dedicated cameras. If phones had large camera sensor like Nokia 808 and low megapixel but very large pixel size + OIS + at least f1.8 aperture + today's processing, phones could beat any dedicated / compact camera. You also can get great optical zoom for phones with attachable lens, like the Galaxy S7 and Note 7 have a lens cover ( http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_note7_and_lens_cover_testing_the_addon_lenses-blog-19790.php ). You just attach the desired lens be it either zoom or wide angle.
But unfortunately manufacturers won't use large camera sensors, because that would increase the thickness of the phone and the primitive consumers want thinness instead. The primitive people prefer looks over features and usefulness. The non-existent common sense of the mass/sheeple is what limits the performance of phone cameras.
No, the monochrome camera does NOT help at all in low light. It does not improve anything on the low light performance.
AnonD-50024, 23 Oct 2017I hope everybody reads this! I am an avid reader who loves GSMA articles. I am not here to ... moreExactly this. I frequent photography forums and always read GSMArena, but knowing that they are siding with the abomination that dual cams are to the smartphone market makes me a little ashamed. I really wish camera quality progressed instead, and that reviewers I trusted over the years really just knew better than that.