s-pen pusher, 22 Jun 2019if you really think this is feasible, why don't you do a schematic diagram of this and submit ... moreWell, we have achieved water proofing in a 3.5mm jack phone 4 years ago (Galaxy S7), so I believe quality can be managed.
Your sensor idea is a good one, except it won't save cost much. Lenses are the expensive part.
Also, to achieve higher zoom, OEM's have started to use smaller pixels & sensors in telephoto cams, so a bigger sensor won't give so much zoom.
But yes, your idea is a good one. If Sony makes an expensive sensor, its possible to share it with multilple lenses, but they can only vary in focal lengths (zoom) (because B&W requires different sensor, Apertures can be varied on same lens itself, and no other use for multiple lens exists except focal length, wide, ultra wide and telephoto)
And in my design the sensor and lens are packed in a small box which rotates itself. In your design, although its good, the sensor's movement must be precise. It should be exactly in front of the lens, not even 1mm here and there.
If its achieveable and cost-efficient, then good enough.
Samath N8 808 owner, 21 Jun 2019Yes, I understand that. But why we need to fit in bigger setups, why not try a 1/2.3 or 1/2.5 ... moreI would say there would be huge compromises to quality, and a compromise to thickness. That's the issue I'm trying to explain.
I just thought of a better method, which will take up the same amount of space as the rotating bezel, camera, and motor. Why not have the camera in a vacuum chamber with the thick/quality lens facing backwards and the sensor being unattached from the module? Then have a second identical thick/quality lens facing forwards.
...basically the large sensor would be in the middle, and it would be able to move forwards and backwards to choose which lens to use. (or maybe have it slide from left/right to choose which module).
There would be a small aperture/shade which would close the front or rear lens as necessary, and the connectivity/cabling for the sensor would connected from the side. Remember the CMOS sensor itself is like a shiny mirror that gets excited by light and interprets these into electrical signals (1/0's), so it doesn't matter which side or angle it gets the light from. This neat trick won't work for cameras that work in different ways (FLiR, LightView, etc etc).
This would be a lighter solution than a flip or scroll camera, but the downside is that it would still demand a hefty opening or bezel at the front. You could either have a 16:9 phone, slap some front-firing stereo loudspeakers and call it a day... to battle against 21:9 phones with a small notch and monospeaker. Or maybe you can take a small compromise to the front-camera performance by having the (S/AM/OLED) display turn off parts of the screen and have the rear camera peak through the front glass. The display will have some distortion on the actual light particles/waves trying to seep through, but it wouldn't be as bad as using a small camera sensor.
Samath N8 808 owner, 21 Jun 2019You have a valid point, and I've thought about it. & I did some calculations. A 1/2.3 i... moreif you really think this is feasible, why don't you do a schematic diagram of this and submit it to oems?
Kangal, 21 Jun 2019Here's the thing, modern cameras are thicker than the older ones and that's one of the reasons... moreYes, I understand that. But why we need to fit in bigger setups, why not try a 1/2.3 or 1/2.5 inch itself, which is good enough?
Self rotating is cool for me, but it might fail in market because no one likes rotating them. Plus you need a very small motor, because such motors are heavily reliable and full of torque. No gears needed. And you replace one camera for that motor. ;)
If the thickness is an issue, we might have a minor two way bulge, one on rear and other on front.
From the calculations I did in the previous post, we can easily have a 8-12MP Camera, albeit with a little compromise in quality here and there.
The examples you gave may be thicker due to display and other components, mine is cleanly located on a bezel & can utilise the full thickness.
s-pen pusher, 21 Jun 2019hi. i see what you are trying to say. eventhough the axle of the rotation is at the center par... moreYou have a valid point, and I've thought about it. & I did some calculations.
A 1/2.3 inch sensor (12MP, 1.4um) has a diameter of 1 cm approx, which going by Pythagoras theorem makes it 6mm x 8mm approximately.
Now, a common phone has approx 8-9mm thickness or so. So, since we shoot in landscape, we can rotate it along its shorter axis, requiring a max width of just 6mm (+1mm for sensor walls).
Since, we're talking on-bezel here, there's NO display to occupy thickness space...
Now for the lens, the widest part of which is the aperture setup (glass is in middle), which should not take any more than 3mm, because the lens itself is 4.5mm or so in focal length, and given an aperture of f/1.5, which is very high. 3mm is no big deal.
So, its still possible/ beneficial for flagships like Asus 6z and gaming phones at least, which are already heavy and thick..
At best, you can agree that this setup is possible for midrangers if not flagships.
Anonymous, 20 Jun 2019This does not allow waterproofingYes, not necessarily. But it helps.
Because the body is same as before, sealed, no moving parts outside. So, it helps.
Samath N8 808 owner, 20 Jun 2019(Imagine holding the phone upright, in calling position)
Rotating mechanism will be under t... moreHere's the thing, modern cameras are thicker than the older ones and that's one of the reasons why they are better: bigger sensor, thicker lens.
Instead of a motor to control the swivelling, you can just make it passive, so the user has to swivel it around like the old Sony-Ericsson Z800. This saves you internal space from an electric motor and gears. It also alleviates concerns about longevity. And supposedly you'd want the front glass to be full, as well as the rear. So you have this rotating camera wedged between the two flat glass sides like a sandwich. And that would be elegant, and require the user to simply flick/rotate the camera from the top side opening.
I still don't see this being thin. Maybe upto 8mm thin, but likely it's closer to 10mm's or more.
Have a look at the CyanogenPhone, I mean, the Oppo N1. It's about 8.9mm's thick all around, but the camera portion is around 9.4mm's thick, and that's without the front and rear glass.
So you could make this design, and have something like a 6mm-7mm phone, with a 9mm-11mm bulge on the top. It might feel like the NotionInk Adam or Lenovo Yoga tablet. Although you would be constrained from a waterproofing and fragility point and maybe only fit in a 3,500mAh battery..... Or you can maybe pull it off and make the phone around 9.5mm's thick uniform, but instead of using a 3,500mAh battery you could instead fit a large 5,500mAh battery inside. And if you decide to completely seal the camera portion and use electric motors, you can make it IP67-IP69 waterproof... but you would still have concerns about durability and longevity, and you'd have to decrease the battery to maybe 4,500mAh capacity.
Before you make judgement about copying thing on every brand of smartphone.
You must think about the cost of research and development on design of smartphone
-Xiaomi do make their own design signature on mi mix lineup and blackshark but did you know that maybe millions dollar have ben waste to make that design (for human resource, testing, manufacturing, etc) to support that they need to sell smartphone that "cheaper" on manufacturing cost which one of the way reduce the cost is research on design
-ASUS do make breakthrough on zenfone 6 camera design (in not just about the rotating thing but the durability of mechanism, safety precaution, software compatibility, etc) but did you know that other asus smartphone design is almost the same with other brand.
Maybe xiaomi think that this rotate camera design will be a good trend in the future so they added on one of xiaomi many smartphone lineup. And waiting their own breakthrough on design.
if you only think every brand must sale only their own signature design once its fail the company will colapse because research cost is not cheap and its takes time to make design form scratch then how do they support the cost?
Samath N8 808 owner, 20 Jun 2019(Imagine holding the phone upright, in calling position) Rotating mechanism will be under t... morehi. i see what you are trying to say. eventhough the axle of the rotation is at the center parallel to the length of the camera module, you have to account for the diameter of the width of the surface of the camera module as it usually is the thickest dimension of the camera module. you can't simply just rotate parts of the camera, say the sensor, it has to be the entire camera module. this idea, although clever, could end up having a bigger than usual camera bump indeed. now, if it has to be in a bezel like you were suggesting, why not then fit into half the length of the bezel the rear camera array and the other half the front camera? no more rotating mechanisms that could be susceptible to failures. really, the best solution for this is for the front camera to be hidden under the display- perhaps we can settle with lesser expectations for the front camera if the rear cameras are really good.
Khadskin27, 20 Jun 2019that was awsome so meaning that phone it has qualcomm 855 ?did you not read the article? its gonna have a 730.
Carol, 20 Jun 2019This guys can.copy anything. They are not to blame, people who support them are.china has very lax policy in intellectual property rights, you should know that. china has been the source of everything knock-offs for decades now.
Kangal, 20 Jun 2019There is a problem with this though.
Reason why the main camera is so good is because the s... more(Imagine holding the phone upright, in calling position)
Rotating mechanism will be under the camera, not around it. So, it won't be thick at all, not even by 0.1 mm.
Imagine a motorised "merry go round", the rotating force being below it in the center, not around it.
Plus, since it rotates internally, the user won't even notice it, while flip mechanisms may jam/ break/ open in pocket, etc.
Your suggested selfie cameras (as usual phones have) will put extra load on motherboard, plus they won't have all the features or even base quality of the main camera... (multiple cameras have less megapixels supported in all mobile chipsets, plus separate UI required in camera app)
"Best of all worlds" is what I'm trying to achieve with my idea.
If you read my old comments on GSMArena, I've worked it all. We can easily have a 1.55um pixel 12MP f/1.7 sensor with all merits, except it has to be on the bezel, for now....
Anonymous, 20 Jun 2019Because it is a lousy and useless idea ?Using 1 camera with a $1 motor, instead of 2 cameras for these benefits:
lesser internal space required,
equal quality in both selfie and main snapping,
lesser processing required,
higher megapixels supported per chipset,
waterproofing and weather sealing very easy,
same phone design (candybar, no moving parts on outside body),
easier design of firmware since we design it for one camera,
..... and you say its a lousy idea?
Well, guess what, my idea is an evolution of this flip camera design only... I imagined this way back in 2017 itself, but I improved it.
Welcome Asus and Mi.