Samsung trademarks new “Bright Night” camera sensor for S11 series Comments
Nick Tagataka, 04 Dec 20191 & 2. I don't think that would happen since pixels with the same colour filters are at le... moreThanks for the reply.
1 & 2 I guess you're right. Merging distant pixels are no use...
About 3, the circular cards won't be on top of each other, they can be part of a rotating card which is penta shaped, like a star for 5 aperture values each. This card can be motor rotated.
4. No, not suggesting that. I meant the common RGBG as opposed to RRRR in the 48 MP sensors of today.
I did some research on Samsung's official claims about S11, and even they mentioned only 6K, and not 8K so you're right here.
- Nick Tagataka
- gRy
Samath N8 808 owner, 03 Dec 2019Thanks..
1. Not suggesting nonabayer. I'm suggesting a conventional sensor whereby its the s... more1 & 2. I don't think that would happen since pixels with the same colour filters are at least 1 pixel apart in a conventional RGB sensor, and "mixing" the data from those pixel would introduce artifacts that would get increasingly worse as you mix more pixels to increase the light sensitivity. Think it as a reverse of array conversion artifacts introduced by QB/TC sensors in full resolution mode.
3. Even if individual circular slot in cards were very thin, if you stacked them on top of another to achieve variable aperture, it would add an significant thickness to the camera module which would be already massive due to a large sensor and accompanying lens. This way they might be able to do something like triple aperture, for instance, but more variation in aperture size would be harder to achieve.
4. By "individually capable pixels", are you suggesting Foveon-styled sensor? I don't really see what you're trying to say here... Also due to the difference in aspect ratio, 27MP sensor can only put out 6K video, and that's still far cry from 8K resolution.
Nick Tagataka, 01 Dec 2019Interesting thoughts, but a few things to point out:
1. Nona Bayer would make their new sen... moreThanks..
1. Not suggesting nonabayer. I'm suggesting a conventional sensor whereby its the same RGBG layout (or RYBY, like 30 Pro has). What I'm suggesting is hardware level mixing of signals from pixels. You should be able to have 4 different channels:-
a. a mixture of output of 1 to 4 pixels (27MP)
b. 1 to 9 pixels (12MP) directly from circuitry, or
c. 1to1 (108MP) directly for high details or super zoom. or
d. 1to16 for extreme night mode, giving 6.67 MP pics with high SNR and superb light.
Its like a RAW output for sensors, like 4 seconrs in 1!!
There should be a separate channels in hardware itself.
This way, you've all choices, which the 48MP's can't do well because they're RRRR layout...
And since we're talking about 8K video in rumours, its already proved that its not a 12MP nonabayer.
2. Agreed, but the channels I'm suggesting are still a much better way than binning pixels. They take the load off processing and storage, so they make camera faster in lower modes. And of course, bigger pixels always are better, pleasing colours, DSLR like feel, you know.
3. Razor thin circular slot-in cards would not occupy much space and will just need a very very small motor to operate. Space is occupied instead by that blade-based aperture mechanism in DSLR's.
And looking at it from another angle, we already saw this in S9's camera, f1.5 and f2.4. So, logical way is forward with more options.
4. Exactly my point, since 8K is the rumour of the town, maybe the sensor is not a tetracell on hardware level.... Maybe they're 108 Million individually capable pixels with RGBG (or Y in place of G). Then it would be possible, right?
For 8K you need 32MP. They might settle for 27MP@30 fps, which is "around 8K". A 4to1 pixel hardware level channel will greatly help in this by reducing binning needs... as processing is needed heavily in high res videos.
Yes, my original post didn't have my full thought. What do you think about this? Is it a possibility?
- Nick Tagataka
- gRy
Anonymous, 02 Dec 2019Lol Samsung will shatter all your myths. I think you're replying to a wrong person. I was giving Samath an explanation on why his/her expectations were a bit unrealistic, so I'm not the one who's making up all the myths here.
- Anonymous
- KSu
Nick Tagataka, 01 Dec 2019Interesting thoughts, but a few things to point out: 1. Nona Bayer would make their new sen... moreLol Samsung will shatter all your myths.
- AnonD-754814
- HxI
Anonymous, 29 Nov 2019This tech is to have more control of HDR. It was never meant to be low light thing. A 27MP... moreYou lack some knowledge, for serious. When you make that much big sensor with 1.6micro m pixel size the camera won't fit in a smartphone also remember that no manufacturer was able to make a sensor with pixel size bigger than 1.44 micro m(not that I know of, You can tell me if you know}.
- CCE
- p@n
Anonymous, 01 Dec 2019So called night shots DOES NOT MAKE SENSE at all...gimmickry. Better reflect TRUE NIGHT foto.... moreYour actually right about this.
- Nick Tagataka
- gRy
Samath N8 808 owner, 01 Dec 2019My guess for S11 camera is the following:-
1. Normal mode combines 3x3= 9 pixels into 1 pix... moreInteresting thoughts, but a few things to point out:
1. Nona Bayer would make their new sensor the best 12MP sensor but also the worst 108MP one at the same time, due to the amount of interpolation which has to be done in order to construct the full resolution image. So while that's certainly a possibility, I strongly think they will simply opt for proven Tetracell structure instead.
2. Since the sensor is already really massive, I don't see a huge point of performing further pixel binning to improve the SNR except when the camera is used in extreme low light scenes... This would introduce the artifacts to the image and lower the detail level as well, but it would be interesting to see it on the final product nonetheless.
3. That would increase the thickness of the camera module significantly, hence is not really a practical solution for a smartphone camera. In that case, the real aperture blades would be less complex to build and more space efficient.
4. 8K30 is impossible on a Tetracell 108MP sensor as it lacks the horizontal resolution that is required for 8K video recording.
My guess for S11 camera is the following:-
1. Normal mode combines 3x3= 9 pixels into 1 pixel. So, 108MP cam will give 12MP pic.
2. There will be lower megapixels in the night mode, maybe 5 or so by combining more pixels,
3. There will be multiple Aperture stops by ready multiple aperture rings that slot in front of the sensor when needed. (not moving aperture mechanism like DSLRs).
These ready rings might work at f/1.3, f/1.5, f1.7, f2.2 & F.3.5 in rotation mode. Not beyond 3.5 because it will make AF suffer, and insta-switch won't be quick.
4. Video will be able to do 8K30, 4K60, 1080p480, 720p1920, etc. and one super slow motion mode. Expect lightning & other capture modes and all as usual.
Note: none of this is concrete info, all my guesses.
- kevinmcmurtrie
- qSw
Anonymous, 29 Nov 2019Please stop talking about Iso. So many people think that a high Iso leads to noisier raw files... moreBoosting the ISO value is simply boosting the noise that is always there from photon and thermal sources. It doesn't matter if the amplification is analog or digital. The only fix is gathering more light. Full-frame cameras like the Sony a7S II that can shoot ISO 25600 and still be cleaner than a phone camera's ISO 100 are getting their sensitivity advantage from enormous sensor cells and efficient light gathering.
- Anonymous
- I@H
So called night shots DOES NOT MAKE SENSE at all...gimmickry.
Better reflect TRUE NIGHT foto...
Senseless nigh photo looking like DAYTIME...STUPIDITY
- Josh
- wg$
All bright night will be is a “night mode” just with a fancy name
- Anonymous
- Kx9
I dont know why sony cannot make this kind of phone first.
- Anonymous
- q{h
Wow 8k thanks samsung
- Anonymous
- LQw
THE-TRUTH-REVEALER, 30 Nov 2019I did not understand your comment and would like to enhance my knowledge...why is combining 6M... moreOracle suggested that low light performance could be better by doing 9 instead of 4.
I said it is impossible because sensor can only do 2x2, as the process is hardware based.
this tech is not just binning pixels.
It is also applying different exposures to improve DR.
You cant do by binning 9.
- Anonymous
- LQw
Anonymous, 30 Nov 2019Of course part of it is software-related but hardware plays a part too. It is the low f-number... moreNot necessarily.
Check the photo tool.
Phones with Quadbayer have samples with higher ISO.
While other use 200-500 at the studio, other with this tech often use 800-1600.
- Anonymous
- LQw
Anonymous, 30 Nov 2019Not a massive fan of laser auto focus. Not sure that it works that well and gives a substantia... moreIt helps at night.
Phones AF keep "hunting" in low light often.
- Anonymous
- m5k
Not a massive fan of laser auto focus. Not sure that it works that well and gives a substantial improvement over phase detection auto focus.
- Anonymous
- vjw
Nick Tagataka, 30 Nov 2019No, that's simply due to the fact that smartphone cameras FAVOUR far lower ISO value and longe... moreOf course part of it is software-related but hardware plays a part too. It is the low f-number that allows lower ISOs to be used.
- Anonymous
- vjw
Anonymous, 29 Nov 2019Please stop talking about Iso. So many people think that a high Iso leads to noisier raw files... moreI think you are the only one who thinks high ISO gives less noise. Continue shooting at ISO 12800 then.
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