Anonymous, 12 Apr 2020World is a bigger place than the USA. Get out of your country once in a while!
I was educati... moreYou are conveniently using a flaw in a detail about an example as a fact against my point, which is, if you are in a situation where someone is ready to forcefully unlock your phone using your face in a non friend/family environment, this person have a high chance of having either a weapon (that many thief/criminal DO carry around a lot) or other physical or even psychological means to force you to unlock your phone.
I am French, I am not from the USA, I just gave an exemple which is valid on many country, except extreme cases like UK or Japan where this is rare, even for the Yakuza to actually have guns, but many still have knifes.
And you weren't educated on the simple fact that because you know ONE scenario, it doesn't mean it is the ONLY one.
Are you kidding ? Remembering a pin is harder as it is remembering numbers, pattern is EASY to remember as it only require to see what move the finger do on the display, and don't get me started on the traces your finger leave on the display.
It have been PROVEN through study that it is easy to remember pattern, even from a certain distance, do you think you have a NSA level difficulty pattern ?
Pattern only allow a limited number of dot connexion, you have to be precise, can't lift the finger, can't fake over another dot and can't even go twice over the same dot, it is EXTREMELY LIMITED and should be seriously upgraded to a better version which would allow such things.
So I am not saying the kid would need day to day observations, I am saying that most peoples are simply able to get it FIRST TIME after looking at it, and note that I am talking about the pattern without the line showing up here, with those like it is even easier.
Remembering a simple movement is a really easy task for the brain :
*Quote*Bystanders with little technical expertise can copy the swipe combinations used to secure Android smartphones from distances of almost two metres, according to a study that compared the different unlocking systems.
The study found that numbered passcodes, which are used on the iPhone and optional on Android phones, are far more secure.*/quote*
We are talking about a study here, not YOUR own theory you like to fantasy about because you like and want to defend your favorite stuff with false arguments.
This is not a theory, this IS a FACT, Pattern is the WORSE "secure" unlocking method.
You can also use simply and easy to code spy bots to register wakeup time and touchscreen activity to EASILY get it, and if you talk about grabbing a phone, putting it in front of someone face and running, why wouldn't grabbing the phone out of someone hand after said person unlock it with the pattern also part of your theory, as it is basically the same thing, except if you really tightly hold onto your phone constantly, anyone can surprise you, even better, distract THEN surprise you and get your phone, some peoples are good enough to take it from your hand without you realizing that, it just require you to stand in the street, unlock your phone, then just keep it in your hand while talking to someone and you just got your unlocked phone stolen, which, with 3D facial recognition sensors, can with simple but good algorithms fix that flaw and simply lock it again.
So NO, 3D facial unlock is NOT less secure because of that.
Plus, you NEED the person to be physically here in order to force 3D unlock it, and by holding it in front of your face, you are aware the phone is being stolen, most good facial recognition also take into account attention, meaning your phone won't unlock if you aren't looking at it, so in any case you DO know your phone is stolen.
Pattern, which can be observed and reproduced on the first try, despite you not believing it against SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCES, don't require you to perform the unlocking, you simply can steal the phone unnoticed then unlock it latter.
And again, if 3D facial recognition wasn't a rare thing, way more improvement would have seen their day, including multiples security making this "holding the phone in its owner face and running" thing totally irrelevant, and well, you DO, because of those stupid negative criticism (not constructive in any way) that peoples like you constantly do when someone talk about a great tech that could be implemented, it make said tech loose popularity and influence which make it less likely to be implemented.
YOU are responsible (along with all the other peoples who do the same) for making pattern not evolving into a more secure thing as you are against other security method, which is literally being against change in current security methods too (its sad, but that's how it work, that's pure market psychology).
You are complaining about a technology which could be implemented WITHOUT having any negative effect on you, and you clearly state that said technology is a gimmick, which is highly suggestive and have a big influence power, so YOU are responsible for that, you are responsible for your words, if I wrote depressing things followed by methods to end self life, I WILL be responsible for the arm caused, here it is the same thing, when you criticize something in a negative way, and said thing is RARE but still desired by a LOT of peoples, you are causing the possibility of implementation of said thing to drop, and sometime a single random comment can have a significant effect on a brand and do one can guess which or when it will be.
3D Facial unlock IS FAR MORE SECURE than pattern in every ways, I did prove your statement wrong multiple times, you are just defending with a single example I can't verify (and based on how the parent can punish his child afterward, is not that credible), with theory that aren't realistic and by voluntarily modeling it in a way that fit YOUR side (capable of taking and holding a phone in someone face without any reaction from the owner and as if it was already lost with thing anyone could do about it...But not capable of simply taking the same phone from the hand of the same person and just running away the same way), and worse of all, you are literally using metaphoric and exemple's details in my exemples to prove me wrong and you use metaphoric pseudo fact as a truth to prove you right.
Meanwhile I gave real world example without manipulating the scenario in my advantage (and I could have easily did the same as you and destroy your phone up the face example with counter exemples where it wouldn't work and where pattern would be in a totally inferior position), furthermore I gave logical explanation about those exemples and faisable solution, EVEN FOR THE PATTERN, but more importantly, I gave multiples sources clearly proving my pointS and scientific backed evidence of what I said.
So if you don't want your phone to be able to check who is drawing the pattern that despite your illusions about that is still easy to spot and reproduce, and sometime even easy to simply crack without even watching it first, that's your problem.
I also rest my case and leave you free to go and check EVIDENCES about the matter.
Demongornot, 12 Apr 2020On the USA (for example) ? Way too many...
Someone who would forcefully unlock the phone by h... moreWorld is a bigger place than the USA. Get out of your country once in a while!
I was educating you on the probability of such a thing happening.
That kid need to be a genius to figure out my pattern lock. That too might take a few months for him to crack by Stealth observation , while face unlock is way less secure as I mentioned with a simple day to day example.
The probability of someone figuring out your pattern by acute observation in Stealth mode is much less than someone putting it front of your face and unlocking the device. Hence its less secure compared to good ol pattern unlock.
I am not preventing other people from using the unlock method of their choice.
Ultimately, they are responsible for their not so secure choices. Just like ppl storing their data on the cloud. I simply said that pattern unlock will always be better than gimmicky 3d unlock, Atleast for now. You certainly couldn't prove my statement wrong.
I rest my case.
Anonymous, 12 Apr 2020How many people carry around a gun? And will put that gun to make you unlock the phone?
Think... moreOn the USA (for example) ? Way too many...
Someone who would forcefully unlock the phone by holding it in front of you would also very likely have means (weapons or not) to force you drawing your pattern.
How many time does this really happen ?
My GF and all her family, and all the relative I often see also know my pattern, simply because I trust them, I won't bother putting my phone unlocked on the table and leave.
And you talk about the kind of scenario that's are actually not dramatic BTW, far from someone wanting to steal your private info or things like that, because there is more chances to get your data accessed from remotely than physically anyway, which is why I don't put any sensitive informations on my phone or my computer, all my projets are either on paper (almost none, and no key informations) or in my head.
And you forgot something, how many times did this kid would have seen his dad drawn the pattern, and without even his down knowing, have unlocked and used the phone that was left on the table ?
Then what if we simply combined 3D Facial recognition + Fingerprint scanner ?
Good luck just unlocking it by surprise now, mainly with the 2 fingers reading 3D Sonic Max (or better future alternatives) where you could have a setting allowing to unlock the phone when placing 2 fingers on the display which would also read the face, meaning not much more than pressing a button and ultra secure, there is basically no scenario where someone could just put two of your fingers on the screen with the phone aimed at you then wave off.
And someone who would hold the phone up my face better be a good runner AND good at avoiding fast moving randomly thrown object aimed at his head, then he would have the pleasure to have some chances to win the bet of what would break first, my hand or his face...
What you forget here is that Apple is famous for being so secure with Face ID that the FBI is forced to ask them to unlock their phone, though this is more a publicity stunt and a propaganda more than something real because there ARE already backdoors, this is law from the Patriot Act, but still, if we put government out of the scenario, it would require a LOT of equipment to crack it...
While pattern can still be easily observed, and as I said, it is the easiest of the pin/pattern/password trio to remember from seeing someone doing it, at least 3D Facial recognition require someone to hold the phone up your face, while someone who spotted your pattern can just take the phone without you looking and unlock it latter.
And those things can evolve, MANY improvements can still be done to 3D Face unlock, including checking for attention, waiting for some specific facial reaction that confirm the user want to unlock his phone or even a "macro" face expression that the user can choose, like a kiss, wink or anything else, there are TONS of things that can be verified, including who hold the phone and what are the phone's movements after it have been unlocked (to avoid those specific scenario, the gyros and accelerometers have WAY ENOUGH informations to check that), and that's just a beginning of what is possible.
There are more than enough possible AI implementation that can detect if you were caught by surprise or not.
Look at how many phones have 3D Facial recognition :
24 phone found by keyword "biometrics"
And 21 with key word "Face ID"
Even there, you have to count MANY variations of the same phone (Pixel 4 and Pixel 4 XL, Huawei Mate 30 and Huawei Mate 30 RS Porsche Design for example), the technology is LITERALLY super rare, underpopulated, and that's what I am fighting against, not only because, whatever you prefer, I DO WANT this tech, who basically cost pennies (yes, those sensors are actually quite cheap) and that you aren't forced to use anyway, and if they were more popular, they would simply evolve into way better tech, including additional sensors which would make them virtually impossible to tricks.
With dedicated chips, they could actually even work outside of the OS, making the phone not able to access any boot loader or other specific mode without one of the multiple possible biometric (or pattern/pin/password) identification first, which would fight heavily against stolen phones as the thief would simply have a phone he wouldn't be able to use, meaning he won't bother stole this particular phone which will quickly become popular for that very feature.
And guess what, you can actually, you, yes you who prefer pattern, benefit from that, imagine if you could simply lock your phone so only you holding it could unlock it with your pattern ?
Because, as I said, pattern are FAR from perfect, 3D facial recognition have its flaws, but patterns have equivalent ones, but they are different, combine the two, and now only someone who take your phone already unlocked can really steal it, use it or access your data.
And if 3D Facial recognition was more popular, so versifications like when the phone move, it will lock if it doesn't detect one of the multiple biometric identification method certifying it is you, from fulldisplay ultrasonic fingerprint scanner who can in 3D read your fingerprint, but can go as far as checking your finger themselves and even your finger's bones, 3D facial recognition, palm recognition and many others.
Regardless, facial recognition IS the main way I unlock my phone, even if it is the unsecured 2D version of my OnePlus 6t, it is WAY TOO convenient for me to draw the pattern, when Android require me to draw the pattern, I just hate it and sometime just prefer putting my phone back down than bothering doing that, many peoples prefer fingerprint scanner and facial recognition because of their fluidity and easy to do/no efforts aspects.
Basically by fighting against 3D facial recognition, you both :
*Fight against change on Smartphones, which is the worse possible thing you can do in an industry where even an hated trend can still be on 95% of the devices simply because it is trending, because there are very few smartphones that are really different.
*Fight against alternative security methods which DON'T replace the previous one, but often add another layer of security and can easily give opportunity to actually improve other methods, including those you prefer.
3D Facial recognition won't ever be on all smartphones, and even on a phone which have it, no one will force you to use it, but now think about the opposite, many peoples DO WANT 3D Facial recognition, it is rare, basically on almost no smartphones, there isn't many choices and it could improve a lot, but those who want it are actually FORCED to use pattern and other unlock methods they may not like because of that.
You can put your faith in pattern as much as you want, but don't prevent all the peoples who want other unlocking and security method to have them while it would not affect you in any negative ways.
Demongornot, 12 Apr 2020Oh yeah sure, by going to the same scenario as yours, I can simply put a gun on your face and ... moreHow many people carry around a gun? And will put that gun to make you unlock the phone?
Think about realistic scenarios.
The other day, I was at a friends place. He uses the iPhone 11 pro.
His 5yr old kid simply grabbed his phone from the table, put it in front of his face and ran into the bedroom since it was unlocked almost immediately.
Had it been my phone, he'd probably be staring at the pattern lock screen.
Another common scenario where a thief gets hold of your phone, all he has to do is, put it in front of the users face and Run! Voila, easy unlock for so called great security solution.
Heck even in a scenario, where a thief takes away my phone, he still won't get past the pattern unlock, where I can be rest assured that my data would be safe and he'd have to wipe the phone completely to use it.
Anonymous, 12 Apr 2020I'll give you 2 phones, one secured behind 3d face unlock gimmick and one behind pattern unloc... moreOh yeah sure, by going to the same scenario as yours, I can simply put a gun on your face and simply ask you to unlock it, heck I can even go as far as injecting you with pentothal or even less agressive drug to make you unlock it for me, or just stole it after you unlock it.
Or, you know just watch your pattern and then reproduce it.
Good luck unlocking a phone with a 3D Facial unlock when the guy isn't there, you'll need a precise 3D scan of his face, those require lab situation to be done, mainly with the living cell detecting algorithm securing it against simple 3D reproduction of the face, and MANY other HUGE improvement can be done, dramatically improving 3D facial recognition reliability and making it virtually impossible to crack outside of lab conditions.
Some easy things can also help find the pattern, if you go as far as someone literally wanting YOUR data and going as far as forcing your face on the phone, I think I can easily have the freedom to push the scenario to feds or secret services trying to force your phone.
Good luck trying to avoid drawing your pattern in front of a camera in our world full of them, and constantly drawing the same pattern can easily leave marks that, with the proper equipment, can be found out, even if you clean your screen.
And there is technical steps to crack the patterns, there is even psychological ones, based on who the phone belong to, you can, with the relevant skills and experience (specialized psychology analyst) easily reduce to a really manageable numbers the possibles combinaisons, and that's even without the other methods.
But even there, evidences that the pattern isn't secure at all keep coming :
If the Pattern was actually an hybrid pin/pattern where you basically draw a pattern by simply going from a list of numbers one after the other and they were randomized like bank numeric pad does, well you would already have a way stronger security, but the pattern that don't even allow yo go back to an already drawn point is a joke, there is even game about cracking it :
Demongornot, 12 Apr 2020Oh yes, something that is now so powerful it can detect tiny details on your face, now have al... moreI'll give you 2 phones, one secured behind 3d face unlock gimmick and one behind pattern unlock.
Let's see which one gets cracked first.
Heck Apple with so called best 3d facial unlock system can be easily bypassed by putting it front of the users face. So many people unlocking devices simply by holding it in front of the person's face, it's fast at unlocking too. So much for security! Lol
Even without the person being there, it can be bypassed with a few technical steps.
Good luck doing that with a pattern unlock.
Anonymous, 12 Apr 20203d facial recognition and other gimmicks will always be inferior to good ol pattern unlock. Oh yes, something that is now so powerful it can detect tiny details on your face, now have algorithms from regular sensors to detect living skin, allow you to simply unlock your phone by pressing a single button and not to worry about repeatedly doing the same thing again and again and have real life performance way better than any other unlocking method (except for the upcoming Qualcomm 3D Sonic Max), it is obviously inferior to something that :
Is susceptible to leave greasy marks easily showing everyone what the pattern is, is so annoying to draw a lot of peoples need to do it multiple time to get it right, is EASY to spot, remember and have been proven to be the easiest way to unlock someone else as a simple glance can easily be remembered by the brain, and even when not looking at the display, with a good enough algorithm, can be determined by simply filming someone's back and finding out their movements...
In theory, pattern is indeed hard to crack because it have so many possible combinaisons, but in real life it is the worse unlocking method available, seriously it is, in term of security closer to "swipe to unlock" than even the basic pin code which is itself dwarfed by the password, itself dwarfed by 2D and unsecured facial recognition, itself beaten by fingerprint reader, itself blown out of the water by 3D facial recognition, itself beaten equally by both advanced and latest 3D facial recognition with all the modern software and 3D ultrasonic fingerprint scanner...
Demongornot, 12 Apr 2020Yeah, a puke hole, no 3D facial recognition, a Paleozoic era's optical UD FPS, 4000mAh battery... more3d facial recognition and other gimmicks will always be inferior to good ol pattern unlock.
Anonymous, 12 Apr 2020Copy paste chinese characters seems to not work. Here is the page:
http://shouji.tenaa.com.... moreMaybe, though both GSMArena and Kimovil profile for this phone said it have a Jack port :
But after some research, this picture don't show any Jack port :
So yeah, if Oppo is stupid enough to remove one of the only desired feature left that could make a phone decent...
I really wish all those stupid phones could not sell well and only those who are different enough to be interesting were popular so we could finally get some variety !
Copy paste chinese characters seems to not work. Here is the page:
The audio port is shared with the charge port show only a USB-C is there, no audio jack.
Yeah, a puke hole, no 3D facial recognition, a Paleozoic era's optical UD FPS, 4000mAh battery is a minimum nowaday, and no WiFi 6 (ax)...
The only good things here are the 3.5mm Jack and the omnidirectional PDAF (IMX689 ?).
Oppo who really started to get serious thanks to the Find X who had 3D facial recognition, uninterrupted real fulldisplay thanks to the pop up camera and a lot of other innovations, they are really disappointing nowadays by making smartphones so unoriginal that spec wise they are hard to differentiate or identify from the rest of the market...
I've put my (oppo) One Plus 7T on 60hz, and have friends try it and they say it is amazing how smooth 90hz is. And then when I tell them it's running at 60hz, I tell them but it's so smooth? I said yeah, the 90hz is mostly MARKETING to get you to buy new stuff. You most likely won't see the stutter in 60hz. But but but the videos? When they show the 60 vs 90 you can easily see the screen stutter & flicker. Then once I explain that the camera recording it captures more than what the human eye can see, you see the light bulb pop on in their brains.
So from a proper flagship to a gaming phone... But a gaming phone without good accesories like the ROG2 is in my opinion a big scam because at the end is a cripple flagship with worse cameras with the excuse to be a gaming phone... I know, they prefer not use the word gaming phone but say that is a phone that allow gaming and can take photos y basically the same LOL. I like the Ace, i don't like this one. It's a downgrade for me in terms of what it should be after the update in this generation. It lost a lot of value sadly.