Didroin, 28 Apr 2020Slow and expensive? Then how does the 2019 mid-range price performance champ (k20) come with a... moreThis is the kind of guy I am actually fighting against, they don't have any idea of how pop up work, they never experienced any and probably not even saw a single one in their life.
There are almost no report on pop up failure, so far I only found a single post on OnePlus forum and like 3 peoples saying their own failed too (which is close to nothing), but yet people like him say they are fragile...
Their mechanism is literally the same as every floppy disk reader, CD/DVD/BluRay reader ever made which are reliable and cheap !
And as you said, most of the cheapest phones come with a pop up, which basically is a plastic shell, two basic piece of metal to guide it, a regular small motor with a screw on it and a piece of metal to link the two, where is the expensive part ? Oh and a spring too, maybe that's what costing so much for him...?
They are so slow that the OnePlus 7(t) Pro unlock speed with camera retracted, from button press to Android unlocked is faster than of the phone of its era like the Galaxy S10+, Huawei P30 Pro and his slightly slower by a unnoticeable time than the RealMe X...
But yeah, they are soooo slow they beat other phone, sure !
And the pop up are so cumbersome that all phone with a pop up basically still have the same feature as other, including a battery as big and the phone is as thin...
Actually some even have more features and bigger battery without being thicker, but yet he consider that it take space ?
Guys like that confirm what I always said :
There are FAR more peoples complaining about X or Y thing about the pop up than any real world example of any of those issue/problem being real.
Basically almost everyone who own a smartphone with a pop up camera loved it, but those peoples who never tested it OBVIOUSLY know so much better and are the one we should listen to, because having no experience of something make their totally false opinion about the pop up real, somehow ?
The day their privacy will be invaded and really embarrassing pictures of them will turn around internet, they won't be so angry for nothing against the pop ups...
Sadly there are many guy like him, and you won't be able to reason him (I tried so many time), they think they are right despite reality telling them they are wrong, you comeup with facts and they gave you false argument from their hate/fear of the pop up...
I was happy when looking at news about pop up in general that in a website peoples talked about this Galaxy phone, while there was some pop up haters, many peoples, some having argument almost identical to mine, basically educated them about the matter.
Those guys don't realize that the pop up is the best and final solution to have both a fulldisplay and a front facing camera, the pop up itself can be heavily upgraded, but the concept is still the best.
Meanwhile they have 95% of the smartphone market to choose from, but yet they come complaining about this super rare feature...
Mike9625, 27 Apr 2020There is no variety, Samsung has at least 10 A series, and all of them offer the same. With s... moreThose differences are what should be expected to change at different price points. I don't see your point here.
JiM, 27 Apr 2020Probably fake news...Pop up cameras are outdated already. Even chinese companies have stopped ... moreSlow and expensive? Then how does the 2019 mid-range price performance champ (k20) come with a pop-up camera?
"China has stopped producing them". That also doesn't seem exactly accurate with the k30 pro/poco F2 showing off a popup
Spanky, 28 Apr 2020I sometimes cover the part of the screen's edge where the earpiece is, with my left hand, when... moreIt is still a bad idea to put it in a spot where it have degraded performances, I would prefer multiple ambiant light and proximity sensor duo at multiple spots on the border that will sort out this problem (of the proximity sensor detect obstruction, other ambiant light sensor would be used which would work better and still be cheaper than making it under display.
I do for two reasons : Having a display without annoying intrusive thing on it which eat spot on the notification/status bar, and for having privacy.
Thanks, I hope the underdisplay tech will also satisfy you, though I really don't believe it will work that well.
And well, there isn't enough pop up, slider, pop up/slider hybrid, flip camera and other phones.
I want pop up + 3D facial recognition, it is nowhere to be found because there is a huge lack in variety, the only pop up system available only host a single camera except for the 2 camera or 1 camera + one floodlight one found in the Vivo V17 Pro and Vivo Nex 3...
I don't want the tiny and near useless pop up with a single camera, I want something like this :
Hosting sensors like this :
Some might say there is the Find X, but it is an old phone hard to find (the irony) without indisplay fingerprint scanner and it doesn't have a pop up but a pop up/slider hybrid where the whole top section of the phone move up, being really bad at water resistance :
Moving the whole top of the phone is totally unnecessary, and it use a single motor to archive that, which is not enough.
So there are no smartphone like I want (and it isn't a complicated demand, everything is already there), and no sign of any upcoming smartphone with that, let alone being enough diversity to get me that + flat display + large area ultrasonic 3D underdisplay fingerprint scanner...
That's why I often talk about pop up, because notch and punch hole already take too much of the market making the pop up being rare, but underdisplay camera, on top of being far from as good as peoples think and not allowing good 3D facial recognition, will, because of the hype around it, probably kill every other form of front facing camera solutions, this include the pop up, the pop up is rare and in danger, the underdisplay camera (if they manage to actually make a decent working model one day, this isn't guaranteed) will invade the market, that's why I freely bash the underdisplay camera and defend the pop up.
Demongornot, 28 Apr 2020How and why are you hand covering a part of the display to begin with ?
I know the Apple's "y... moreI sometimes cover the part of the screen's edge where the earpiece is, with my left hand, when I type in landscape mode. And the light sensor is right next to it and gets covered too, occasionally. If the light sensor would have been in the screen, I wouldn't be covering it by accident.
Anyway, I see that you are passionate about the pop-up cameras and, if that's what you want, it's all good! I hope that you will find a great phone with a pop-up camera and that it will be just as you wanted. But I'm sticking with the in-display camera idea. Even though it might now work properly NOW, I'm sure that they will figure things out and that their quality will be just as good as a regular camera.
So, there are plenty of phone models out there, for everyone, and that's awesome. Everyone can find something to like, from pop-up cameras and punch holes, to waterdrop notches and thick bezels. When you compare today's phones to the ones that we had 15-20 years ago, you realize that we are truly lucky nowadays!
Anonymous, 28 Apr 2020let's hope that the camera is mechanical only and has to be operated manually so it could last... moreWell, if the picture is indeed the Galaxy A?? and not a random picture of a phone with a pop up, this kind of pop up is mechanical.
And when you peoples will stop and learn about that ?
There is NO durability issue with pop up, most phone with pop up will have their mechanism working fine while keys components such as batteries, display and silicon will be dead, those kind of mechanism are the same as found inside a CD/DVD/Blu Ray player and floppy disk reader that did thousands and more of movement per days, really quickly and could often change direction really abruptly, yet those last for decades.
Why would it cause any issue on a smartphone ?
Also, note that the manually operated one is not a pop up but a slider, and those are totally different, and while in theory the slider are more durable and as much as I prefer them over notch, hole and even bezel, they have their weakness, because of the whole phone being two sliding parts, there is near no water resistance, rain can damage the phone, because of the really large area where the phone have a separation, this isn't likely to happen though, but accidental drop in water will ruin it.
Unlike the pop up which is quite tightly sealed and proved to resist long underwater exposure.
Basically all argument against the pop up which are proven false, sadly hold true against slider mechanism, so ultimately, the pop up is more durable all aspects considered, and in raw failure rate, both will anyway last longer than the phone itself.
So please peoples, stop systematically associating pop up and low durability, the years of yes and nearly no pop up to even fail prove that old argument wrong, mainly considering most peoples change their phone way before the time between the first pop ups (that still work) to now.
zaryan, 28 Apr 2020say hello to a31/41SDefinitely not 41s because it's supposed to be a compact phone
Cool. It could be a mid-range phone... as I think it could be Samsung Galaxy A21s or Samsung Galaxy A21e. Three cameras, a rear-mounted fingerprint sensor... this is definitely known for these devices.
let's hope that the camera is mechanical only and has to be operated manually so it could last longer than the auto pop-up camera.
the camera with auto pop-up mechanism might look awesone but it is using some kind of electro mechanical that prone to damage
Spanky, 28 Apr 2020I understand, but it really bothers me in my current phone because I type a lot in landscape m... moreHow and why are you hand covering a part of the display to begin with ?
I know the Apple's "you held it wrong" argument is stupid, but you can't just put your hand over the display in a spot there are sensors and complain it is the fault of the sensors placement.
Even there, smartphone with bezel didn't suffered much from this issue, mainly because the sensors were visible, but also because there were big enough and worked well.
My only issue with ambiant light sensor are more about being extremely slow to adapt to light, being too dark when I can't see anything and other issues related to having poor sensor as most modern phones, never my hand was an issue.
Top right corner in your case work only if you always put your phone in the right side, if you put it upside down (easy to do with modern phones), the top right corner placement is actually worse.
Putting tiny sensors way smaller than you should or putting them under the display have way worse effect than the way you handle your device.
The only reasonable thing to put under the display is an ultrasonic fingerprint scanner (because ultrasound doesn't mind passing through objects unlike light, which is obvious, that's why we use sound to scan inside objects and not visible light or IR).
No optical based thing, regardless if those are fingerprint scanner, camera, 3D facial recognition sensors, general ToF and other DoF sensors, proximity and ambiant light sensor have their place under any kind of opaque (even slightly) display.
It is as stupid as making an expensive display with huge resolution that match/beat PC monitor and are able to give the illusion of pixel-less image, with a lot of colors precisely calibrated, with amazing brightness and HDR capabilities, really deep blacks and high refresh rate, then to put a hole or dent in it.
Or building an amazing telescope capable amazing fits, but putting a piece of fabric in front of it, thankfully astronomers are way smarter than the phone industry and don't do such things...
The same is true for underdisplay camera who can't resolve all light gathering issue, and even if they do it will be at the cost of the display itself where a part of it will be turned off to allow this camera gimmick to see (if we can call that seeing, I'd say guesstimated what is in front of it), they rely on algorithms to fix the image and it is easy to see as there are many artifacts, raw data collection is horrible and doesn't allow for any satisfyingly secure 3D facial recognition and other biometrics.
Also, having your camera being discreet while it can still see you is a really stupid idea, it give a sense of comfort that many count on to invade your privacy, that's why pop up camera or no front camera at all are by far the best solution.
Having the camera stored away (and protected) when not in use and not interfering in any manner with the display IS the solution to have both a front facing camera AND a fullscreen display.
It is like hidden windscreen wipers like on the 1968 Corvette being stored away and hidden when not in use.
Punch hole and notch is like having in the middle of the windshield (having something to interrupt something as important as the notification/status bar is equivalent of a disturbance in the middle of the windshield) something that move around it to wipe it just to not have a tiny visibility on non stowed wipers on most cars.
Bezel is like most cars do, but underdisplay camera would be like having two windshield with the exterior one allowing water to get through and having the wiper between the two glass, just so it can be stored out of the way on the side while not requiring other moving parts to make it work, yes, it is as stupid, it is heavily hyped, but as many thing people over hype about, it is a poor/bad solution.
There is literally no reasons why peoples should be fan of underdisplay camera, and even more to be fan of the pop up mechanism, but more importantly, there is no reasons at all why peoples should hate/fear pop up, yet everyone do because of pure ignorance.
Demongornot, 27 Apr 2020I mean, on the top of the phone, not on the side or the whole border.
Because of notch becomi... moreI understand, but it really bothers me in my current phone because I type a lot in landscape mode and my left hand tends to cover the area around the frontal camera, which makes the screen turn dark. I have the same problem in games, in landscape mode. Lately, I've kept the sensor disabled, as it was getting very annoying. So, putting the sensor on the edge isn't such a good thing, at least not in all usage scenarios.
I really like what Samsung did with the ambient light sensor inside the Galaxy A51: under display, in the top-right quarter of the screen. This way, even when using the phone in landscape mode, you don't accidentally cover it with your hands/fingers. I can't say anything about its reliability, but it seems to be the best placement, in my opinion.
Anonymous, 27 Apr 2020Nope pop up is the best solution better than in display camera which will only creates problemsThat may be true now, which is why it's still in prototype form. But, once they solve the light intake problems, I don't think there's going to be any real issue. Functional and discreet!
Very good. Now only a rectangular 16:9 display with sharp corners is missing. This aspect ratio is best for video playback and still allows for e-book reading. I have two phones here, S5 and S7, which offer this quality of a display, and both have a bezel which is useful not only for the camera, but for a loudspeaker and light/proximity sensors as well. I like popup selfie camera because the camera is not used continuously and can be hidden to affirm this state. It could be the main camera if it could turn back and forth.
Probably fake news...Pop up cameras are outdated already. Even chinese companies have stopped making them. Fragile, expensive, slow and cumbersome
Spanky, 27 Apr 2020No pop-up cameras for me. That just seems like the worse idea ever, for a camera.
I'm looki... morePlacing the camera behind an opaque material IS the stupidest/worse solution ever.
Followed by removing a part of the display in the most space important part (notification & statut bar) to put a camera who only is here for a secondary purpose and only occasionally used.
Those two solutions are gimmick full of issues.
Now here are the real solutions :
Placing the front camera in a simple, reliable, durable and nice looking system and mechanism IS the best solution for front camera + fulldisplay as the camera doesn't bother or affect negatively the display when not in use and allow the internet_connected_camera_in_a_device_you_take_everywhere to offer privacy.
The better solution for a front facing camera if fulldisplay isn't a concern is the bezel.
The best solution for fulldisplay if front camera isn't a concern is simply NO front camera, it is :
*Using the main camera with either a second display on the back.
*An alternative solution is a manually operated simple mechanism with a mirror making the main camera look in front.
*The best solution is a retinal display that I highly advocate as it allow for so many new possibilities which include being able to see near perfect 3D hologram illusion...
*Or simply not having any front camera at all and just using the phone for every other thing that doesn't require it (which is like 95% of what the Smartphone is used for).
Many peoples are hating pop up without ever experiencing it, but basically everyone who have a phone with a pop up love it and almost no one ever talked about any issues with it.
On the opposite underdisplay camera is something many peoples are big fan of despite no one every trying it, and unlike pop up who only have theoretical issues who doesn't apply to the real life, all so called solutions the underdisplay camera give are theoretical and doesn't apply to the real life properly, but its issues are real life applied and it already showed it by pictures which no one fan of photography will consider even "acceptable", even me who often doesn't see any issue with Flagship pictures that many say are "poor quality", I saw the problems with all pictures taken by engineering sample underdisplay camera prototype/demonstrator, and those can't magically go away, something looking through an opaque material will always suffer quality losses.