Qimchi, 11 Jun 2020Well pop up cameras have to pop-up for anyone to actually see if it gets hacked so still for n... moreThis isn't only being hacked, many websites and apps did triggered the pop up, proving they were collecting user data like face without authorization.
I personally use this naming convention for any moving camera feature.
There is :
*Pop up, when it come front inside the phone : OnePlus 7(t) Pro, Redmi K30 Pro, Vivo V17 Pro, Oppo Reno 10x Zoom, etc...
*Slider the whole half of the phone slide : Xiaomi Mi Mix 3, Honor Magic 2, Lenovo Z5 Pro, etc...
*Pop up/slider hybrid is when a part of the phone slide : Samsung A80, Oppo Find X.
*Flip camera when the camera flip front/back. : Asus Zenfone 6.
The Asus is a flip style.
Pop up is for me the best currently available system, but my real dream idea is to have no front camera at all but rather having all sensors (including facial recognition) on the back, and there is two idea for allowing to see yourself from the display :
The simplest one would be a dual mirror unfoldable by hand which simply allow the main camera to see what's in front of the phone.
The advanced one is a retinal projector, an image directly projected in your eyes, making the back of the phone literally an holographic projector, or at least that's what you'll see, an image floating in front of you, and in 3D if it use one projector per eye, allowing not just to have the standard from camera like use, but also a totally new interface gesture based.
What are your concerns ?
Demongornot, 08 Jun 2020That's what pop up cameras already do !Well pop up cameras have to pop-up for anyone to actually see if it gets hacked so still for now Pop up is the best way to go full-screen. For now. Other than that Asus phone which I prefer because of how it uses the great main camera sensor. I still have concerns for that design.
As for me, it's better to have a good powerful 4 and 5G chip, with powerful antennas for better compatibility and communication quality in different countries.
Lostar, 10 Jun 2020Look in theory I love the idea of a pop up camera, you have the option of privacy and a nice f... moreI already wrote those two a bazillion times (I should indeed write a blog and just post the links...), but here we go :
First, there are many pop up that are water resistant enough to survive accidental drop on water and to operate in rain conditions, while some video are indeed fakes, many genuine one proved it.
And if you want to go further, you can simply ditch the electric motor system and switch to an electromagnetic actuated pop up...
In short :
The pop up module itself is a enclosed part that contain the sensors, just a guiding rail and magnets on its sides (top left, top right, bottom left and bottom right) or two (left and right middle of the sides).
It is put inside a "dent" in the smartphone that simply host it, this dent is totally sealed off of.
Said dent have the same 4 magnets + two or 4 electromagnets (simple coil).
Just add 2 springs on top and two on the bottom, and voila.
Now when it stored position, the lower magnets attract each others which latch it there, in lifted position the opposite is true, and for actuating it you simply power the coils that just need to overpower the magnet strength latching it in place (electromagnets can easily do that).
Not a single moving part except for the pop up itself, totally sealed off meaning waterproof (and not just water resistant), virtually no wear except for the guiding rails (and such things can last for extremely long times), if you force against it there is no physical latching mechanism that get stressed out as it only stay in place thanks to magnets, theoretically no way it can ever fail, super fast actuations, won't get damaged if the actuation happen in a pocket, resist falls like a champ.
But in order to see such improved pop up, we first need to have the pop up being popular enough so the little R&D needed to make a good prototype is considered worth it, in short, the thing that can make pop up popular need pop up to be popular to exist.
Demongornot, 09 Jun 2020Same, pop up is the best choice for this job for two reasons : Since it extend, you can see... moreLook in theory I love the idea of a pop up camera, you have the option of privacy and a nice full, uninterrupted display. If they could engineer it to also be water resistant, I would be there 100% but I've yet to see anyone do this.
GeorgeOrwell, 09 Jun 2020Certainly, from an engineering point of view this is "interesting" but that's about it. I a... moreI agree with your sentiments on privacy and security. However show me a phone that doesn't have a front facing camera with decent specs.. and without risk of having your information sold or accessed. This display tech solves the waterproofing problem the notch problem, the bezel problem. Short of being able to custom 3D print & program your own device I don't think we're going to have any options anytime soon.
GeorgeOrwell, 09 Jun 2020Certainly, from an engineering point of view this is "interesting" but that's about it.
I a... morePop up isn't a weak spot, that's an old myth that the pop up will break in a nanosecond and the rest of the phone will last longer than the Sun...
Pop up use the same mechanism that those in CD/DVD/BluRay readers which are quite robust, some worked continuously for extremely long amount of time, and guess what, they have a metal screw on a plastic piece for the head, on smartphone it is metal on metal (probably both steel, which is a really slippery material, so really low wear).
A good mechanical device can last for decades, or even centuries, some clocks date centuries back and are still working...
Meanwhile a display and all the electronic components have a limited lifespan, you can't hope to archive the same durability with them, plus they are expensive to replace (if possible) and essential for the phone.
And the battery not only last a limited time, but also even without using it, it still degrade itself.
And for the security, I am advocating 2 things :
Two particular biometric sensor (set), and a dedicated security chip.
First, ultrasonic underdisplay fingerprint scanner taking a large display area, sadly there is only a single one, the Qualcomm 3D Sonic Max, the Note20 was supposed to have it, but apparently there is a rumor saying that Samsung wanted the exclusivity and Qualcomm refused, and the time it took for all that mean that there isn't enough time for this sensor to be implemented on this phone, but regardless in term of security it is the most advanced, and the larger reading area (that you might initially, based on what you said, not like) is a really practical thing, but also allow for two finger unlock.
That plus 3D facial recognition using Dot projectors, IR and UV camera and their respective floodlight, a laser scanner and a regular (or two) camera.
The UV camera would add a massive security jump to the facial recognition, and the laser scanning, that during initial face recording will scan your whole face and during unlock will scan a particular spot (checking for really precise unique face details and for the step effect 3D printer make), also knowing that this is possible to now detect living skin thanks to only IR camera and Dot projector, the security of such 3D facial recognition sensor set would be insanely high.
Now, just letting the OS handle all that is a poor idea for multiple reasons, the best is a dedicated security chip that handle all the biometric and other password/pin/pattern.
The advantage here is that no only the data are stored away from the OS, and the hardware based will make the thing lightning fast, but the AI can be smart enough to follow your body evolution and adapt to those changes but also get more and more precise with time.
Now you can add multiple features to that, including a "Face code" and "Fingerprint + pattern" that can be either required to unlock the phone or even the opposite, to block any unlock attempt for X minutes.
You can also set that a specific combinaison of two fingers do the same thing, either being a requirement or a blocking thing.
With such dedicated chip you can have more multiple users allowed, yourself (owner), trusted (a family member you would leave your phone to unlocked and don't be worried), friends (limited access, but still some possibilities), and guests (only the most basic things being allowed) with the ability to add a guest on the fly.
One great thing about that, is that you can prevent anyone to access the bootloader without sufficient security level (not enough of the face visible, only one finger, etc), making the phone worthless for any thief as no one they could sell it to would be able to use it.
But you could also, for a set amount of time, make that even yourself won't have access to more features than a guest, and only past this time, you can unlock your phone but only with maximum security (face code + full face + two fingers + finger pattern for example), meaning this phone would be basically the best at protecting your privacy.
Also adding another feature, if you aren't the person in front of the phone, it will lock itself, meaning no pit pocket or policeman can force you to unlock the phone then do their thing with it.
THAT would be secured, and I think peoples like you, who are concerned about security and privacy would really love such device.
Add to that a pop up that doesn't use mechanical but electromagnetic actuation, meaning no moving parts except for the pop up module itself, virtually no wear, and since magnetic field can go through a lot of materials, the pop up module can be sealed and be in a "compartment" which is also sealed from the rest of the phone, meaning totally waterproof (not just water resistant) too, and also quite fast.
To make this phone perfect in term of security, the only thing you'll need is a ON/OFF switch for the pop up and a ON/OFF + push (to talk) microphone switch (a OnePlus style switch).
What do you think about that ?
Certainly, from an engineering point of view this is "interesting" but that's about it.
I am not the least interested in a device that constantly stares at me when I use it. Addtionally I am not that narcissistic and hardly ever use it.
Currently stickers are covering all (front-facing) cameras on the laptop and the mobile devices.
A pop-out camera, even with the downside of being a mechanical thing which is a weak spot, a finger print reader on the back so it can be entirely avoided, get the thumbs up from me. Yes, I know that I'm part of a minority group.
Why? Well, think about it for 10 seconds.
- How often can you change your finger print? 10 times in most cases. 10 fingers.
- How often can you change your face? Well, now it gets tougher. 1 face.
- How often can you change a password/PIN/passphrase? You see?!
- Depending on the jurisdiction one can be forced to finger- or face-unlock her/his device.
That's why. Convenience isn't everything.
Anonymous, 09 Jun 2020My main use for the selfie cam is as a pseudo-mirror to see connections or labels on the back ... moreSame, pop up is the best choice for this job for two reasons :
Since it extend, you can see a little further than with a regular camera.
And since the best aspect (sadly not yet taken advantage of) of pop up cameras is the ability to put many sensors on them while keeping a full display, if they were more popular they would come in more diversity, which include 3D facial recognition, and more importantly for you, with a front floodlight.
My main use for the selfie cam is as a pseudo-mirror to see connections or labels on the back of difficult to access equipment. Picture quality isn't a concern at all.
XORROR, 09 Jun 2020Unfortunately, your attempts are in vain, everything changes too quickly, unsuccessful ideas a... moreThis is not in vain, trust me, I know what I am doing.
Even funnier, everytime someone say that what I do is useless, it actually make what I do even more effective, but it would be wayyyy to long to explain how and why and I simply don't want to anyway.
But it require lot of work to make a little change, and believe it or not, but what I do is for all of us, not only me.
The real question is, based on how peoples react when I actually educate them on how X or Y feature is better or worse than the other and their pros and cons(while also influencing things in an indirect way that most peoples won't notice), should I really invest so many time trying to make things better when peoples are the way they are ?
You know why I keep doing that ? Because what I do is actually paving the way for something new, if my main project success I'll have way more than enough funds to make my own Smartphone brand and bringing a totally new way peoples will choose their device, something that no one gonna see coming but everyone will love, I didn't even give an hint at what it is, but it will still help it, that's part of a years long strategy I am planing, and I am also evaluating tech nerd preferences while doing it.
Or I'll fail my main project and this comment will just be lost on the internet among all those why tried and failed. xD
A bad tech can come and totally replace an older but better one, that's the issue, it isn't about the best tech, just the most trending, tons of totally idiotic things are widespread on smartphones nowaday and some did replaced really good alternatives.
We should all fight to have diversity, the more different feature set there is, the more most peoples are gonna be able to find their ideal phone, so even if the pop up was worse than the underdisplay camera (which isn't the case anyway), we better keep it than replace it.
Demongornot, 09 Jun 2020I literally wrote a page worth of comments explaining with tons of various arguments why the p... moreUnfortunately, your attempts are in vain, everything changes too quickly, unsuccessful ideas are being squeezed by someone else's lobby (Samsung with a holey screen), and people's phones change too often, even before they manage to fail. I know people who change one flagship to another as soon as it comes out ~ once every 3 months. If it were so easy to order the apparatus of your dreams, that would be wonderful)))
Anonymous, 09 Jun 2020lol go get a blog, demon gorgonzola. At this point your comments are spam. You really feel the... moreYou don't even have an account or a nickname, how did you have the audacity to complain about this or to try (and fail massively) mocking my own nickname ?
I don't answer post and disagree, I answer post mainly to peoples who said TOTALLY FALSE claims about the pop up, that's completely different, whatever I think about the pop up doesn't change the veracity of facts.
And this is exactly BECAUSE the underdisplay camera (that I literally wrote an essaie here explaining how actually bad it is in MANY levels, not just image quality) risk to get the pop up instinct that I defend it.
Removing the jack port isn't progress, and loosing the pop up which have every imaginable advantages over the underdisplay camera AND is the only tech that allow both front facing camera AND privacy is NOT progress, this is stupid loss of variety due to a single tech that spam the market, because the way I "spam" here is notching compared to how notches and punch holes spammed the industry, and it is nothing compared to how the underdisplay camera will do it.
I don't fight for preventing underdisplay camera to get released, I can't, and even if I could, I would not, because I believe in variety, even about tech I dislike or hate, what I do is defending the pop up against stupid and false arguments, which actually have its effect.
Many peoples still prefer the bezel, even thick ones, over notches and punch holes and underdisplay camera, removing a particular thing that is totally valid to get totally replaced by something else ISN'T progress.
And you wouldn't act so proudly if it was the feature YOU like that was about to disappear by something you hate AND you know that will be bad, even disastrous in many ways.
And making a camera under an opaque material will ALWAYS have loss of quality, pixels will always degrade the image, mainly seen from so close, the underdisplay camera will always have a lesser quality, even with the most sensitive camera and the clearest display it will always have quite bad RAW quality and require software to try and fix it, which mean reconstructing the image, look at the tech semples, they are full of artifacts and have no details plus they have poor light collection.
Underdisplay camera will always be a threat to visual based biometric such as Palm recognition, Iris scanner and 3D facial recognition and can't allow any light emission, and this, is a fact.
Demongornot, 09 Jun 2020I literally wrote a page worth of comments explaining with tons of various arguments why the p... moreUncle LongPost is on fire today.
I agree with you that under the display camera will have poor image quality compared to any other mechanism that exist for front cameras today.
Actually.. from what I know, they can use a transparent display to make camera seen through the display.. still the display can get black with black cover behind the display.. and also make the display a bit light colour so the cam can get the clear image when capturing the image..
lol go get a blog, demon gorgonzola. At this point your comments are spam. You really feel the need to reply to every single comment you disagree with, huh?
First devices with new technology like an under-display camera will always be inferior, but will improve over newer iterations. That's called progress, in case you didn't know, and manufacturers will move on from pop-up cameras just like notches and cameras in thicker top bezels.
I don't understand why they're focused on putting it on the top instead of in the middle of the screen...
[deleted post]I literally wrote a page worth of comments explaining with tons of various arguments why the pop up is the superior option and why underdisplay carema is the worse.
I can also do the same explaining why bezels are far better than puke holes and tear inducing notches.
So either go read that wall of text, or don't bother me.
Anyway, it's bed time, go buy your expensive, poor quality, privacy breaker and tech inhibiter underdisplay camera if you want, I am tired trying to stop peoples from doing mistakes just to get insulted.