Buaha, 16 Oct 2020You misinterpreted my sarcastic yet logical recommendation.
IP68 is the max available hence... moreLiterally the first thing I wrote is "I guess you are joking".
And nope it isn't logical as IP rating is about ingress protection where the "6" is already the maximum for particle and where "9" is already used and it is for specific types of liquids.
IP rating don't scale to waterproofness as it is always time limited for liquids and only suited for liquid resistance, ATM rating, commonly found on smartwatches (which are waterproof) is better suited for that role :
Note that it start at 30m equivalent depth and is considered not for swimming with, so IPxx with its 1,5m is cute and wouldn't scale.
The goal of water part of the IP rating is for stuff like an exterior camera that have to tolerate rain, a shower speaker that have to deal with projections, outdoor outlets that have to resist potential flood and stuff like that, it was never made for smartphones to begin with, it isn't adapted and it is not for waterproofness even if you scale it to IP79Xtrem.
Demongornot, 15 Oct 2020I guess you are joking, but in case, this isn't the case, and for everyone else who don... moreYou misinterpreted my sarcastic yet logical recommendation.
IP68 is the max available hence the suggestion to create IP79...
Buaha, 15 Oct 2020" IP rated phones are water resistant, not waterproof. "
Since you're puttin... moreI guess you are joking, but in case, this isn't the case, and for everyone else who don't know that, here is a good video explaining how IP rating actually work and why IP rated phones should still be kept away from water regardless :
And remember, the best and actually only water resistance that matter in your phone is when a manufacturer will cover water damages and have an independent SD card so you can replace it without giving up on data that matter or that are private by just retrieving the card.
PartTimePhoner, 14 Oct 2020IP rated phones are waterresistant, not waterproof.
People having more risky behaviour doe... more" IP rated phones are water resistant, not waterproof. "
Since you're putting it that way, it's time to take things up a notch and finally introduce the IP79 rating then...
[deleted post]Thanks for the suggestions, the current design is a place holder though and many changes are still pending, it was a simplified 3D model, many things aren't for aesthetic but for showing where they are in the phone.
Top and bottom borders are the same thickness, I plan on making the edges rounded and not sharp, but SketchUp software have its limits, and by the way the display will be totally squared with sharp 90° angles (not the body), I initially took the basic design of the S20 body and I wasn't expecting to make a whole phone, it was only for the pop up initially, and I got carried away...
So the corners of the display will be 90° angles which will allow to see and reach the furthest parts easily (as almost no phones have straight corners, no elements goes that far, so it give a margin), and the protruding part all around it, including the exterior edges of the bezels that are actually squishy and from a Graphene/Graphyne and Carbon nanotubes textile like, well, I don't know the English name, but the shape will be similar to edges of a leather pillow :
They hard squishy, and it would be close to that in term of feel too, so that phone wouldn't need any case, mainly as it will be highly durable against wear.
I also felt that the best ratio is 2:1, or 18:9 as you call it, it is a good compromise and balance and also used for many movies, not too tall and allow to have enough content.
The top is already crowded, though I thought about putting a second USB and Jack magnetic connector on the top left and right, just above the side tactile displays, as they are flat and don't take much volume inside they wouldn't be an issue, and the kind of magnetic connector I have in mind could easily have a 180° moving head like this :
Though mine would be much more complex with its 26 independent parallel & serial lines for the data/power.
The door is actually a little more complex than it seem, it is held tightly with a complex latching mechanism with a triple layer seal totally water tight, the third layer also serve as connector, as the wireless charging on this is different, it is contact based but allow for incredibly high power and also extremely fast data transfert, so when the phone is on its base it can charge and transfert at the same time, and the "door" have the complex system allowing this contact based charge & data to work, it is also intended, in case of damage, to simply replace the door.
The way to open it is actually with the pen, the pen head can be reversed and work as a screw driver, and inside the pen compartment, near the entrance, you have a fat screw for the latching mechanism, so un-tightening it will release the large all-around clamp that hold the door watertight, and you have access to the removable battery, the dual SIM and the two micro SD card slots, along with some small physical switches allowing the master privacy switch on top to control when on "OFF" mode if more than the microphone will be disconnected.
The way the battery itself work is quite complicated, lets say it is some sort of non-chemical electron buffer somewhere between super/hyper capacitors and conventional batteries, I actually have several contenders for what to use, and I really like supraconductor capacitors that despite the little waste required to keep them cool can hold amazing capacity, I'm talking like around 50,000mAh and more for a phone sized battery (including the cooling) and it can basically charge almost instantaneously, but it have some drawbacks and in case of cooling failures it become really dangerous, so...Realistically it won't be this one sadly, but I am also looking at some extreme form of pure static retention that basically are a mix of semi-conductors and quantum physic using behaviors like quantum tunneling to operate with complex behaviors and basically "store" electrons in resonance state between atoms, but that isn't tomorrow technology, it is far future stuff.
The camera setup is voluntarily overkill, as I said, it rely way more on computational photography than pure sensor performances, the idea is to be able to gather enough informations to turn potato like sensor data into impressive high resolution, except that it is with a DSLR sensor, this thing is imagined to be able to have as much quality capability as the best of the best camera out there, I am taking real professional stuff, able to shot a movie, I am talking being able to use this phone to shoot an IMAX movie and have a comparable quality as a real IMAX camera.
The main APS-C already do all the jobs, from Ultra-wide and even further, not fisheye as the external element lens is flat, but the low focal length capability is clearly not an issue, and it can goes all the way up to telephoto, as far as it is faisable without loosing too much light, so we may be talking about 40x optical zoom easily here, the way the periscope is narrow but super long allow for such wide focal length range, and the goal is also to have a deep control over focus, with a really deep depth of field capability down to a really narrow one and super close minimum focus point, so the main sensor already can do from super ultra wide up to super-telephoto.
All the other sensors are not for taking pictures but for gathering a LOT of additional informations, from different focused images to light, light at certain distance, etc.
And the two IR/UV will already be ToF, they are Flash LiDAR type in fact, but they aren't for focusing, the triple laser triangulation are (BTW it isn't triangulation because there are 3 lasers, but because it use 2 camera for that, the 3 lasers are for covering a large portion of the view in short burst to get continuous ranging with extreme accuracy on multiple points), the Flash LiDAR are more for subject contouring and gathering depth data useful for many other things, including AR/XR.
The fingerprint sensor won't be optical, it is ultrasonic, except that the display as a sound speaker, normally for low, but it will be able to provide modulated ultrasound and the tactile part is also the receiver for the ultrasound, and lets say that it will be WAYYY better than the Samsung implementation.
You'll get an extremely accurate 3D capture with flesh, blood, bone density measurement, veins pattern matching, heartbeat detection and all that, normally the sensor on the Samsung flagships is already physically capable of detecting all that, same with detecting and excluding gloves and screen protectors, but they just don't use it properly, it is like having a jet engine, but you just use it to spin an air turbine far beyond to generate electricity to spin a small electric propeller...
And I am talking about fulldisplay fingerprint scanner with dedicated hardware for ultra fast and super accurate recognition, the phone is really centered around security and privacy.
Demongornot, 14 Oct 2020Yes, I talk about the IP rating certification, I am 200% pro making phones water-resistant by ... moreFew suggestions to your design. Taking inspiration from the Xperia 1ii let there be a symmetrical top and bottom bezel for front facing speakers and sensors. The bottom bezel can have a soft light strip for notifications and such like the Xperia ZR. Flat screen and corners rounded like the Xperia 1ii. For me rounded corners are nice but tapping anything that's close to the corner like the 'X' on an ad or pause button in a game is a slight inconvenience. 18:9 is just nice.
Headphone jack if required will be on the top right side. That way holding the phone sideways with wired headphones plugged in the jack isn't poking the palm but instead resting between the thumb
and index. I'm not sure how your battery door is design but for me my idea is to take the Pixel 2 back design, the lower rear of the phone being removable along with it's battery. and the top part would be a door held tightly and sealed with rubber gasket, opened with a sim ejector tool.
About the battery, if the battery was removed along with the door/cover that might be better (in my head) as you can swap batteries while the phone is wet. The battery is encased in it's on compartment which is the rear cover. That way you can either just replace the battery which is in the rear cover or replace the entire cover for speedy swaps. Maybe the phone even has a small internal battery so you can swap without turning the phone off.
3 rear cameras. 1 large sensor maybe (1/1.25) with only 8MP with OIS for excellent lowlight and dynamic range at 4K and another slightly less large but still large (1/1.33) sensor with 24MP for that resolution and downsampled 6K to 4K videos. Laser and PDAF and maybe 3D ToF for the best focusing system. Ultrawide camera from the S20 Ultra. And voila. 3 useful cameras. Telephoto is IMO not really that great at all on phones. Maybe up to 3x but it's more of a gimmick any more than that. Ultrawide however is much more useful. Oh and side fingerprint sensor since screen protectors aren't great with UD sensors.
Just some very specific suggestions and ideas I've had. Great design btw.
Anonymous, 15 Oct 2020I dont trust Samsung SD Cards anymore.
I previoulsy bought 128 gb evo+ plus card which adver... moreMaybe the problem in the adapter? You know some PC OEMs do save cost by using slower adapters for SD.
Try it on another device with a decent adapter.
This is nice thing to have. But I'll go for 1TB storage even if it doesn't have lP Rating or any sort of Water Resistance.
I dont trust Samsung SD Cards anymore.
I previoulsy bought 128 gb evo+ plus card which advertises speeds up to 90 MB/s.
I rarely saw more than 16 MB/s in SD Card test software or in real life practice.
P.S: My devices support latest standards to achive highest results, and i tried transferring large files not small files.
PartTimePhoner, 14 Oct 2020I am assuming those extra holes next to the camera are sensors (which is quite the assumption ... moreOups, I missed the 10 minutes comment editing windows...
The triple laser rangefinder around the main lens are basically drawing a "Fibonacci Mandala" pattern, (which is really the trajectory I think would give the best result and a more accurate description than an "Iris"), like this image :
Source, this excellent collection of artistic drawing based on Golden Ratio :
Anyway, the concept of this phone is to take pictures with as many data as possible and use the magic of powerful AI to get results where the RAW quality exceed what pro DSLR achieve and have auto-editing result way greater than any smartphones with user presets, conservation of RAW data for non-real time powerful computational photography work allowing mind blowing quality and effects, like post picture refocusing and change of depth of field, change perspective, 3D effect, 100% matching eye vision (luminosity, color and reflections), extreme night capabilities, extremely accurate HDR measurement, ultra fast snapshot with µs delay, extreme slow motion, capability to look through some obstructions, extremely precise range finding and real world measurement from few cm to potentially 100m with a precision under 1mm at close range, extremely accurate subject/object layering, high precision 3D scanning with ToF and rangefinder assisted photogrammetry, high precision AR/XR capabilities and many other powerful functions.
I also imagined a similar phone with a single APS-H rather than two APS-C, but I think, thanks to the amazing computational capabilities provided through many sensors and a dedicated and hardware accelerated AI chip, all the additional data, mainly with the burst focus allowing to act like a Light Field camera, give much more advantages than a slightly larger sensor.
The only downside is that, if you do a lot of photography, lets say that the phone have two independent SD card slots and you better use them with TB size cards if you don't render the RAWs into regular pictures often...
Because when I talk about a lot of data, it is really a lot, at the point where it would have intermediate memory types serving as buffer between the camera and the RAM, and between the RAM and the main/additional memory as LPDDR5 and UFS 3.1 won't be fast enough if you run it in full quality, of course there is also the regular picture mode too, it is a fictional concept phone after all, despite being realistic, I don't want to put any software or hardware restrictions under what the top edge of technology allow in the near future.
PartTimePhoner, 14 Oct 2020I am assuming those extra holes next to the camera are sensors (which is quite the assumption ... moreThat's complicated, the pop up is specialized for face recognition and it contain :
*Two IR camera both using :
_1) Focal Plane Flash LiDAR alternante between Flash and dynamic Phase modulation.
_2) And Scanning dynamic Structured Light
The two types are used sequentially, not both at once or hybrid, so it work in 3 modes each having sub-sequences, and they have a special dynamic quick changing IR bayer for error rejection, I think about a rotating double filter that use its rotation to align the two to have slight variation in the IR range they filter.
*It also have an UV-A camera for detecting additional skin details.
*A ultra-wide angle used for quick face identification (finding and roughly matching with large tolerances) and group shots.
*And a "selfie optimized portrait" (with optical bokeh through short focus distance and shallow depth of field) for both selfies and visual face recognition (that along with the Ultra Wide perform a stereoscopic vision).
*Both sides have an IR flash and modulator projector (that also have a dynamic IR filter).
*Tri-LED flash with Warm, Cold and RBG.
Each of the lighting are used in rapid succession to allow multiple and combined angle lighting for additional data.
On the back :
You have a big camera lens that use a special flat 90° "reflector" to channel the light into a long serie of complex periscope like optic using both meta-lenses and deformable mirrors to control focal length and focus ranges (depth of field and distance/minimum/maximum focus distances) allowing the main objective to give Wide, Ultra-Wide, Portrait (with optical focus Bokeh), Telephoto (with extreme focal length capacity) and Macro modes, it feed two APS-C sensors, one is basically the main while the other gather additional informations, depending on the conditions, it can gather a different focus setting, or take the equivalent of a ultra-fast burst with varying focus and/or focal length settings.
The other 6 sensors aren't determined yet as this setup depend heavily on computational photography rather than pure sensor capacity and software evolve constantly and I already revisited it multiple times.
But what I think right now is the best is :
*A monochrome with a single bayer (so high pixel density, helping for sharp details).
*A fast lens for gathering fast moving objects without blur.
*A gated image sensor for seeing through obstructive conditions like fog.
*Two IR/UV sensors (using a UV/IR bayer, so half pixels of the sensor for each) for stereoscopy, ranging and additional informations for UV and IR filtering and potentially limited thermal for one and high sensitivity (for night vision) for the other.
*And not sure for the sixth, but I am thinking about something special like an extremely quick and accurate stabilized sensor with some limited gimbal which allow for long exposure time.
The 3 "dots" around the main lens are IR lasers that basically each follow a rotating pattern as if they followed a mechanical bladed iris tip that is used for quick range finder (for laser autofocus and multiple subject range estimation) at low computing power and short delays.
I know those 6 camera external lens are small, but those are more place holders than final designs, I consider rather using a single lens for each that will get split into 3 smaller but reasonably sized periscopes that will allow for a similar amount of light per sensor than what a conventional mobile have.
Demongornot, 14 Oct 2020Yes, I talk about the IP rating certification, I am 200% pro making phones water-resistant by ... moreI am assuming those extra holes next to the camera are sensors (which is quite the assumption but dunno what else they can be) why are they there?
PartTimePhoner, 14 Oct 2020Ah you mean the certification?
Phone manufacturers need it to have more people buy their p... moreYes, I talk about the IP rating certification, I am 200% pro making phones water-resistant by how they are build or even full and real waterproof.
I even designed a Pop up concept that is waterproof for that reason and it is on a phone concept that allow removable battery while also being waterproof using a complex latching mechanism and watertight "door".
Demongornot, 14 Oct 2020Please, don't be another person who barely understand correctly structured and grammatica... moreAh you mean the certification?
Phone manufacturers need it to have more people buy their phones still but a phone can have resistance without certification.
Dometalican, 14 Oct 2020I see Demongorot's argument because I've seen people comment here (no sarcasm at all... moreExactly, because of how peoples use their phones and interpret IP rating, it make IP rating more detrimental than anything else, and other peoples would have been more careful are influenced by those uses, some lucky persons can abuse the phone with water and have no issues for years while other have the phone dying after a single accidental drop in the toilets.
Well, technological addiction will only deepen with time, as someone who spend his whole day with his computer, I can't accuse anyone to be addicted to smartphones, but I recognize this isn't an healthy behavior, though I am different and I don't need social contact.
I also don't care about IP rating, and if it wasn't that much pushed as mandatory despite the added cost, I wouldn't mind IP rating on my phone, but what I don't like though is when IP rating is used as an excuse to avoid pop up, remove Jack, avoid having independent SD slot (in separated compartment), having large and good front firing speakers or stereo speakers and other features.
IP rating is actually doing more harm than good AND is preventing features, that's why I don't like it.
PartTimePhoner, 14 Oct 2020IP rated phones are waterresistant, not waterproof.
People having more risky behaviour doe... morePlease, don't be another person who barely understand correctly structured and grammatically correct sentences and interpret in a wrong way their meaning.
Fighting against peoples who can't accept facts is already tiring, but those who can't figure out meaning of normal sentences without any hidden insinuations are a true pain...
I did NOT said that IP rating is waterproof, if anything I explain that this is the point, IP rating is about water resistance, and it is a limited resistance rating.
Well, considering that it doesn't add anything and cause those risky behaviors, it is, mainly as it add around 50$ to the cost.
The issue is how IP rating is an excuse for not using some features, OnePlus with their 7 and prior said they were water resistant, the phones didn't had any IP rating and they were indeed able to resist water and accidental drop in water, and because they didn't have IP rating but only a good built (probably matching other IP rated phones) and it was clearly said by the brand and there was many video proving it, it probably avoided many dangerous behaviors that would have caused the phones to be damaged or killed by water.
The issue is that even a brand new phone that drop once in a pool, even in a shallow area that doesn't exceed IP rating depth, and is quickly retrieved, can be damaged or killed by water, but in the meantime, brands use IP rating as an excuse to advertise the phone as being able to be used in pools without issues, don't warn about any possible issues, and don't cover water damage (except in some rare cases with extended warranty that are often costly), so indeed IP rating doesn't prove anything and have drawbacks and no benefits.
dbjungle, 14 Oct 2020I was unaware that drops are a problem for SD cards.It's secured against price drops now. Lol