S13, 26 Apr 2020truth be told, a lot of the spec wars re pretty useless.
90mhz and 210mhz weren't even a nee... moreIts all about bringing something new to the table year on year, useful or useless. Something new so that the company can differentiate its new products and get brain washing sales pitch. It is a very good & effective business strategy.
RishiGuru, 26 Apr 2020I also like the "keep it simple" approach in design. To many components or complex schematics ... moreBe careful there! Sweet, fussy and warm are usually characterised as bass bost in a good way.
Why do you think there's more snake oil in audio than anywhere else? Answer is quite simple. Because there's no place with more snakes.
Fot instance when I told how Aurvanu Live are great and how you can find them for 70$ I meant that, you can buy very same ones with Denon branding slapped on for more than 200$ or similar Fostex one's for around 350$. All with same Foster 40 mm driver's. This is just one of many examples. I currently am in Foster dynamic driver's paper tin cone phase & will probably stay there for a long time.
Saga never really ends but DAC is not where you should be spending more money than you should. So you can buy great DAC; portable for 43~70$, desktop 90~150$ & around twice that much for balanced one's and that's just it you won't need better one for life. You also can fairly cheap buy a great headaphone amp fairly cheap; 70~100$ portable, 100~200$ desktop & again about twice that much for balanced.
Great power amplifiers are rare and very expensive.
Most important part is always analogue transmitters (headaphones, speakers) and that's where you need to invest most of your time & money finding what you like and how you like it. That's where you will color it and a reason why you need a transparent DAC in the first place.
NEX "HiFi" switch is nothing more than than software On/off switch for third SSM6322 used as OP Amp & adjusted at +7 dB gain.
Let me answer & CS43198 output question if I understand it correctly. It uses both at it's hybrid design (all new one's are) has separate line's for PCM and DSD & acording uses different transformation methods.
ZolaIII, 25 Apr 2020Didn't really understand question about CS43198 output. Did swipe fast trough SSM6322 data she... moreI also like the "keep it simple" approach in design. To many components or complex schematics does not always equate to better audio quality. And then audio quality are like two sides of the same coin with objective & subjective tests. In many cases I rather choose a component with few dB less SINAD if it happens to sound more sweeter in my ears. And I believe if a person is happy with the sound of a $50 USB DAC, then there is no need for him to upgrade.
But we audio lovers are always bitten by this UPGRADE BUG, and spend thousands of dollars on it.
I think we should stop bothering about the audio configuration in NEX ans rather enjoy the sound. A measured SINAD of 114 db is truly phenomenal achievement for a smartphone, and NEX beats the LG G7 which tops out at 109 dB in this regard.
Lastly, there is one part of all Soomal technical audio reviews that I always understand less and that is the phones output power or voltage through audio jacks. Vivo NEX have a system-wide HiFi ON/OFF switch. The Soomal review said on HiFi mode the output through audio jack is line level (0 dB) and on standard mode -7 dB. So correct me if I am wrong the output is 1 Vrms in HiFi mode. And I have seen from other audio reviews from Soomal they never stretch the amp, so that 1 Vrms is most probably the 1st gain step. I am assuming all these in my limited technical abilities and will love if you shed your technical abilities here.
Anonymous, 25 Apr 2020Duh it's a good phone for the price and definite contender for budget flasghip of the year esp... moreTelephoto lens will be only used for portrait
Ultrabwide better and equal with other flagship
Main camera also better and equal with other flagship of you want just go see camera review in youtube
It has ufs 3.0 not 2.1
8gb rqm is enough iphone 11 pro max hqs only 4gb ram and its doing its work smoothly unlike samsung and oneplus lg and iphone won't lack after 1 year update
I have s9 plus and i am using it in 1080p if i switched to 1440 p it won't last even for 13 hours
RishiGuru, 25 Apr 2020Thanks again!!!
So by nature the SSM6322 are single ended stereo line amplifiers specially ... moretruth be told, a lot of the spec wars re pretty useless.
90mhz and 210mhz weren't even a need we thought about a few months ago.
some ofthse periscope 10x zoom and what not are pretty useless. nobody really zooms in to see the detail , etc.
there's a reason people are unhappy these days in general and on meds etc. they need validation via social media likes and they spend too much time online and create a false sense of need.
i give you a phone and dont tell you if it's snapdragon 865 or 90hz display or tell you what brnd name it is... you will ot know. if you like the product it's good. if you don't that's cool.
RishiGuru, 25 Apr 2020Thanks again!!! So by nature the SSM6322 are single ended stereo line amplifiers specially ... moreDidn't really understand question about CS43198 output. Did swipe fast trough SSM6322 data sheet seams it has a high power point rejection rate but its tied to higher frequency range & falls dramatically in low end. It has a 1 DB claimed better THD+N than Sabre9601k or OPA1622 but its a very low power one up to 32 Ohm's designed for phones specially probably up to 30 mW. It's strange they used it, bi Amp-ing is never a very good way to go if you have other choice. It's even stranger because CS43131 with it's own Amp in Sonata HD Pro (14 mW @ 300 Ohm's) menage to outperform both Meizu Pro and LG G7 (10 mW @ 300 Ohm's). Of course neither of these is for more than 64 Ohm's can's at best, ideally for 32 Ohm's ones. All together if you need an Amp for anything over 100 Ohms you have to go either balanced or dedicated or both. Today you can buy great portable or desktop headphone Amp for 70~100$ so why bother. Simple design is always better & so is self stand over multi practice intercontinental. :)
ZolaIII, 25 Apr 2020They probably used two as in line amplifiers (it's not balanced design to go per chanel) &... moreThanks again!!!
So by nature the SSM6322 are single ended stereo line amplifiers specially designed to interface with DACs with differential inputs and single ended voltage output. And two of them are in series amplifing the current and voltage. Then why there is even a need for the third SSM6322? As you previously stated pretty strange configuration.
Are CS43198 voltage or current output DACs?
I was speaking about drive capibility of Vivo Nex related to high impedence headphones. It is pretty much their with my lg v30.
sonyhavana, 25 Apr 2020This review is unfair. The phone is almost perfect...and why 4 stars? I have seen here other p... moreDuh it's a good phone for the price and definite contender for budget flasghip of the year especially in the US.
But It's far from perfect flagship. How can it get max score?
-Lacks periscope zoom lens.
-Lwer resolution screen downgrade.
-Lacks high refresh rate.
-Main camera is weaker compared to other flagship especially in low light.
-Slower UFS 2.1
-lack of 12gb ram option.
-lack of dedicated cooling.
-Ultrawide is weak compared to other flagships.
-Weak fast charging.
This review is unfair. The phone is almost perfect...and why 4 stars? I have seen here other phones with other flaws..like poor battery life having almost the max score...
RishiGuru, 25 Apr 2020Vivo never clarified the use of three Analog Devices SSM6322 op-amps as buffer stages after th... moreThey probably used two as in line amplifiers (it's not balanced design to go per chanel) & third one as OP Amp as it has only one on/of gain stage (in software). All put tightli together on small peace of separate PCB (which actually ain't good) no SIP or POP fur sure. They can refer to DAC as they want but it's a CS43198, package does not determine that. End result counts & it's really a SINAD of 114 dB (one dB less than stated) which for phone is phenomenal. It dose have some distortion il lows and that's it. I don't know what output power it is. What did you menage to push with it (headaphones / impedance/ LPS)?
ZolaIII, 23 Apr 2020Sorry I thought you live there. It's bizarre why they used 3 OP Amp's in mobile, if they were ... moreVivo never clarified the use of three Analog Devices SSM6322 op-amps as buffer stages after the audio DAC (Cirrus Logic CS43199) in Vivo NEX (NEX S in China). The only answers from them was they took these four components and made a single SIP (chip) out of it hardware wise. And the phone has an official measured dynamic range of 130 dB & distortion (THD+N) of -115 dB.
Soomal in its review states Cirrus Logic CS43199 (DAC) used in NEX is a customized version of Cirrus Logic CS43198 (DAC) with different packaging as required by Vivo. And both these DACs comes without any integrated headphone amplifier.
So it very well be the first SSM6322 op-amp in NEX is used for I/V conversion & low pass filtering and then the next two is used one for each audio channel as discrete headphone amplifiers. What I can guarantee is NEX have awesome output power at high gain stages for a phone that is. However in the end these are all my assumptions and I could be wrong.
I once read an audio review on NEX by an Italian media (use google tranlate) though the review was very subjective:
Phones fan, 19 Apr 2020LG will pay for the wrong choices.What type of wrong choices?
htx, 24 Apr 2020LG V60 perfect match is a Sennheiser HD 820 (2500usd) and you will never complain about sound... moreSure if you trow in a Atom or Schiit Magni Heresy 3+ in between. Try out with Creative Aurvana Live or Air instead which are about 70$ on a good deal. Senns are over rated and I hope you will learn not to mix portable with desktop gear by the way whose complaining?
ZolaIII, 24 Apr 2020OPA1622 act's as OP Amp when you switch it on & you are probably right. Take a look at dif... moreLG V60 perfect match is a Sennheiser HD 820 (2500usd) and you will never complain about sound quality ever again!
RishiGuru, 24 Apr 2020It seems TempoTec Sonata HD Pro is a good USB DAC. It should be.
What came as a surprise wh... moreOPA1622 act's as OP Amp when you switch it on & you are probably right. Take a look at difference in output power (mV/mW) @ audiosciencereview.com for TempoTec Sonata HD Pro & Meizu HiFi Pro. TempoTec uses only integrated Amp on CS43131 and Meizu uses it & OPA1622. The ES9018KM2 + SABRE9601 is a reference ESS design later they integrated it into single IC the ES9218KM2. It's a similar story with CS43131 (with amp) & CS43198 (without it). I bought Sonata iDSD as I wanted self battery powered portable DAC which won't pick additional filth from USB power supply (they all do) and whose lucky it's very easy with enough space left around the bord to modify. You can do that with tiny dongle alike one's. Whose it worth it it's open to discussion. Anyway it works with (almost) any OS & has additional HiBy USB A (so could "magic" line actually just costume based USB connection solution) input line which is nice as you can use it with it as dedicated player only (as a DAP) & being able to use regular USB cable is fabulous thing. Unfortunately for me Sony didn't done USB host software controls properly (I can't disable charging of the phone in this HiBy connection mode) so I don't use it like that. Circus mode really bad support regarding drivers for CS43131 (no where to be found) which is a such a shame as its a such a great DAC IC.
Anyhow to have adresed that problems with low end on any portabl DAC or AMP (including integrated ones and in phone one's) no matter of the price (with possible exception of newer AKM DAC's which have other problem being grounded to much) you have to do (shilling) your self (for now). Vivo really had some very interesting and good products regarding smartphone audio to bad they are no where to be found hire where I live (Bosnia & Hercegovina). Thing is DAC's reached what there whose to reach & 110 dB is enough what you will ever need & even that much if you are young and have perfect hearing (otherwise even 100 dB is enough). What's left is that bottom (low bass) end tightening which is actually a minor design approach thing. Same thing regarding noise eliminating applies to Amp's with additional matching & biosing but again it's only a question of proper design.
Thanks for a lovely & educational convention.
ZolaIII, 24 Apr 2020Yup... It's a tad worser than NEX around 102 dB SINAD.
It also has distortion in the lower ba... moreIt seems TempoTec Sonata HD Pro is a good USB DAC. It should be.
What came as a surprise while reading the review was ESS made this dedicated ESS ES9018K2M + ESS ES9601K combination on request from Vivo for their X5Max smartphone in 2014. Because during 2012 to 2015, Vivo was the only manufacturer with mobile phone audio innovations and ESS was an integral part of that.
However, in X5Max the ESS ES9601K was used as an I/V converter where as next in the line OPA1612 acts as the headphone amplifier. What TempoTec Sonata HD Pro did is to use the same custom setup of X5Max, but this time use the ES9601K as an amp. Personally I believe there was no need of the OPA1612 in X5Max's audio chain and the ES9018K2M + ESS ES9601K was more than enough. Maybe Vivo overlooked the strength of ES9601K as a headphone amplifier.
All said and done, what Vivo did in terms of sound quality with X5Max in 2014 was an extraordinary achievement for a phone that is.
RishiGuru, 24 Apr 2020Thanks.
Just for you interest technical audio review for my Vivo X5 Max: (Use google trans... moreYup... It's a tad worser than NEX around 102 dB SINAD.
It also has distortion in the lower bass but less than NEX.
This is my DAC:
Seams they did only 48 kHz test. It has less low bass distortion all do inter modular one is similarly high.
I use it with Sony Xperia XZ1 which doesn't suffer from USB Audio 2.0 problems as S7 used hire. Stock USB C cable is a garbage, I use Shanling L2 (whose price whose hard for me to justify but there isn't anything good normally priced on the market). I adresed inter modular distortion with graphite shilling, bottom end is now tight as it can be. It all together goes up to about 110 dB SINAD and all do that's both worser than NEX and TempoTec Sonata HD Pro the tighter bottom end worths more (as there's no material - music that will go that high with dB range anyway). Molding takes half a hour, you need a Philips small screwdriver and cost's 1$ to 5$ depending on will you use plane graphite power or made graphite plates.
ZolaIII, 23 Apr 2020Sorry I thought you live there. It's bizarre why they used 3 OP Amp's in mobile, if they were ... moreThanks.
Just for you interest technical audio review for my Vivo X5 Max: (Use google translate)
X5Max is a 5 year old smartphone but still its audio over headphone is stellar.