AnonD-90736, 13 May 2013Its very silly that people are saying that laptops are better than smartphones. I have to comp... moreOk, run auto cad, convert wma to mp3 to wav, transfer hundreds of movie/music to 3 terabyte of hd, convert dvd/bluray to xvid/divx/h264/wmv/mp4, using your LG 4X hd.... let see what happen to your beloved quad core phone ( if your phone can do that ).e.g. "boat cannot carry the vessel, but vessel can carry the boat". Cellphone may slow the sale of computer, but it cannot replace it.
..just to add, I think Silvermont tablets will bring a powerful Windows performance (able to run heawy, complex apps, even some 2009/2010 games) to pure (300-600grams) tablets also.
Although i dont know whats the point of trying to use such apps other than in a classic way(mouse, keyboard, touchpad).
And if you want to use tablet apps on a Windows tab..well, bad luck. Because there's basically no such apps on Windows.
And thats why I think Android and iOS will hold dominance in Tablet space until Windows touch ecosystem shapes up.
Andrei, 18 May 2013ok let's just wait and see what those 2 are going to bring to the table i n the next ytears, a... more"Almost anyone would go for an ultrabook"
^This right there proves the bias and lack of objectivity.
If you doubt, just look at the tablet sales.
Two iPads alone are vastly outselling all ultrabooks combined..hence completely blowing your argument away.
"Only advantage being the battery life"
^sorry, but have to say, the above proves it again.
You ever used a tablet?
Like, 50% lighter than an ultrabook.. ease of handling is strikingly in their favor.
Then, the SCREEN.. I'm yet to see an ultrabook in the same price range that can even remotely compare to the screen of Nexus 10, iPad 4, Asus TP700i, or Xperia Tablet Z.
Ultrabook screens are simply pathetic in comparison.
And then there are simplicity of operation, incomparable(to windows) selection of touch optimized apps, and security of mobile OS's.
Also, tablets are far better for reading PDF, e-magazines and books, with those superior screens, and light, compact form factor.
Yeah, you can drool over next gen ultrabooks, but guess what?
Next gen tablets will also be much more powerful, be even lighter, and have even better battery life than they have now.
iPad 5, for example.. will land at about 500grams, 7mm, with next gen Swift architexture that will double the CPU capability, further increase efficiency (battery life)and with Power VR 6xx GPU (certainly over 100GFLOPS..which is better than majority of low end ultrabooks actually) and up to 128GB of storage.
And you can bet that Android 5 and iOS7 will be more than good enough for average people.
So yeah, ultrabooks are fine, but tablets are fine also..and sales indicate they are in fact better for majority of people.
Both have their fair share of advantages, and that won't change any time soon.
AnonD-96269, 17 May 2013Ah, of course I've read all that before.
But I know better than taking it for granted and not... moreok let's just wait and see what those 2 are going to bring to the table i n the next ytears, anyway laptop's aren't going anywhere, ayt least not for now. For example, an 11.6 touchscreen ultrabook with an i3 has 2x more power than the fastest tablet(not even gonna compare graphics), it can be found(at least here in my country) at the same price as the ipad and other high end tablets. Now tell me, would you take a tablet over a computer that runs full windows(and windows store apps/games), has a touchscreen, is MUCH more powerful, it's as portable while packing a full keyboard and all the other stuff? I bet almost anyone would go for the ultrabook.
The only downside is battery life and the fact that is not quite like a tablet because of that crappy sleep states(it can't receive messages and other things while the lid is closed or is sleeping. Haswell is gonna fix the sleep states and, at least partially the battery life problem. I'm actually waiting for intel to release those cpus to be able to get a laptop, because a little mpore battery life (maybe 1-2h more) really makes a difference, and the new sleep states also
Really now, in my oppinion at least, a touchscreen laptop is a better choice than a tablet, especially at the same price.
One more thing, arm is also lying about the A-57. They said 3x performance of current high end right? if you look at their site they say only like 180% compared to A-15. What happened to the othger 120%? Lost down the road it seems. Yeah, maybe intel lies about their cpus sometimes, but I'm not so sure they ever promised something not much time before release and delivered only 60%. So let's just wait and see what's gonna happen, thoose years to follow are gonna be really interesting because of this competition heating up. And the ones who win the most are us, the end users after all
AnonD-146658, 17 May 2013One word: Ubuntu-phone (in 2014).
with it's convergence capabilities will be able to close ... moreUbuntu phone will be feasible only via having Ubuntu as a dual booted secondary OS, and augmented with a modular hardware extension - additional screen and keyboard.
Ubuntu lacks touch optimized apps, and doesn't support Android apps.
But again, yeah, with a powerful enough CPU/GPU, and seamless transition when docked to peripherials, Ubuntu phone could indeed replace the desktop.
One word: Ubuntu-phone (in 2014).
with it's convergence capabilities will be able to close the Gap between Smartphones and PC.
With incredible powerful phones coming and with those "mini ARM android PCs" (like the mk802 III or better) becoming popular and replacing big computers, it just makes sense that your phone can do the same (or more).
We'll need an updated article next year :)
Here's some additional light on the matter..why AMD is picking ARM:
Andrei, 17 May 2013Ok so you are right about the arm compared to intel thing, my bad. but i just went to some wik... moreAh, of course I've read all that before.
But I know better than taking it for granted and not looking at it from a wider, more objective perspective.. I know better by now, than to fall for Intel's internal presentations, before anyone actually tested the product.
It's all been seen before, for too many times.
If anyone is all talk and no delivery, it is Intel.
Anand really lost a lot of credibility in my mind, with that report.
That being said, I think you're still missing couple of points.
EVEN if Silvermont delivers on the promise, even if it turns out that efficient (highly unlikely if you ask me), the 30% of its power draw decrease is already due to the drop to 22nm process. ARM on the other hand, promises up to 5x decrease with the SAME process as with the current one. Because its A53 is already an incredible 4 times smaller than A9 core built on the same process..
..can you imagine what will it look like, on a 16nm process?
..You'll get EIGHT TIMES SMALLER core than the current 32nm A9 core, and about TWENTY FIVE TIMES SMALLER core than current 32nm Atom core.
Now just imagine the power efficiency of the 16nm big.LITTLE thing .. four A53 cores running at 1.6ghz will do the job 80-90% of the time, with some 10 times(up to 5 times less on current process, divided by two, for the 16nm) less power draw compared to, say, current Galaxy Note 2' chip.
Four A57 cores..well, honestly i can't even guess what they would be needed for, in a smartphone or tablet.
But if there, they would be idle for vast majority of the time.
Start getting the picture?
Then, your comparison of Clover Trail with A15 SoC also brings the GPU into equation!
Do you have any idea of just how much powerful the Mali 604 is compared to an SGX 545 in the Atom? And how much it affects the consumption?
Finally.. EVEN if I am off with all this and Silvermont and its successors turns out more efficient..I promise you here and now, the Exynos, Swift, Krait etc..will again end up in almost every phone and majority of tablets out there.
Because, like I said earlier, there are other categories in which ARM based architecture wins hands down - price, ease of implementation, flexibility, simplicity.
Silvermont can be frugal and powerful.. but you don't have an idea how complex, big and expensive in comparison it has to be in order to achieve that, with all the comprehensive micromanagement mechanisms and algorithms etc.
When it comes to ultra low power, you have an overwhelming amount of evidence(the actual market) to the contrary.
Anyway, to end this debate(hopefully) I think it would be best to post this:
I'd say it is safe to conclude that there's room for both architectures, and will be in the foreseeable future
AnonD-96269, 16 May 2013Oh man that was so disappointing.. like I said I sensed your pro Intel bias right away, but no... moreOk so you are right about the arm compared to intel thing, my bad. but i just went to some wikipedia sites and made some math: intel is bigger than the sum of ARM, entire qualcomm, the enitre texas instruments and probably also samsung's CPU making division(couldn find any exact data about this one) in both employees and money. Now that's a pretty big company. And I didn't say intel is gonna buy arm, they won't because of the reasons you stated, i just said they had the money to do it.
I'm not biased towards intel, i'm just thinking that intel will do mnuch better than arm in the rung run because of a lot of factors
Also...you said that arm's architecture is more efficient than x86 right? turns out that's not right at all:
And that's now. with a dual core atom,intel's x86 atom is more wfficient than samsung's dual A-15.
And AGAIN, look for yourself what the next atom will bring
This means as fast as quad A57 with quad A53, using less power. OR same power as current generations on a battery that could last for over 20-25(!!!)(5x lower SoC consuption, considering rest of the components draw as much power as they do now) hours of continous video wathcing, playing, web browsing etc on a single charge. THAT'S HUGE improvement over anything ever made for tablets or phones
So there you have it, pure facts, pure impartial articles showing intel>arm and x86>armv7/8/n
Andrei, 16 May 2013Ok so your links had tons of problems, starting from the fact that those weren't full hd video... moreOh man that was so disappointing.. like I said I sensed your pro Intel bias right away, but now you just went full disclosure.
ARM a "petty company"?
Little fly that Intel could just buy out but and get it over with, but it's not even worth the effort of squashing it?
Is that what you're saying?
Do some basic reasoning and you will see just how completely clueless your statements were.
First, a big firm can't just go around buying little firms as it pleases..ARM buyout would be screamingly anti competitive and could not pass any legal commission, not in your wildest dreams.
Second, ARM is a design bureau that sells intellectual property, not a hardware corporation like Intel.(btw..you do.realize majority of Intel employments are just manufacturing workforce?)
Everyone can design chips on that base - Apple, Samsung, Nvidia, Qualcomm.. thats what Intel will fight against. Not ARM.
ARM have created a basic architecture that is inherently more simple, more flexible, cheaper, and more efficient than x86.
No matter what Intel does, its architecture will always be inherently more complex, because of the legacy software it origined with..its always RISC vs CISC here, and in mobile space, CISC is nothing but a drag, a baggage. It's more of a curse.
So when you say Intel will do that and this, just think about what Samsung, Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, will do with ARM.
BTW..today I played Real Racing 3 on my android, with a full hd video pop up window on top of it! Worked smoothly!
And i played 4 full hd videos simultaneously after that.
So yeah, Android may not offer full Windows multitasking, but it CAN multitask.
And ARM is more than capable of doing the lifting..now and into the future.
AnonD-96269, 16 May 2013What kind of argument is that?
Look at my links and you'll clearly see that Clover trail Z27... moreOk so your links had tons of problems, starting from the fact that those weren't full hd videos, none of them.
and yeah, maybe clover trail is weak. It's true it isn't the most powerful chip out there i agree, but this is just because intel didn't give a damn about atom until last year, and it only now starts putting time and resources into theese chips, and the results will start to show beggining from bay trail forth. if intel manages to put even 2.3 or 3x performance into the same power consuption(which is less than their original target) this will still get you 9 hours battery and be faster than S4 whithout all the crappy *power saving* cores. And if you think that intel can't can be beaten by a petty companny like arm you can keep dreaming. Arm has 2000 employees, intel has over 100.000. Intel has 100x more money than arm. They afford to buy arm overnight simply to trash all their products and the entire arhitecture. So do you actually think intel, with 100.000 minds can't come up with something better than 2000? My predictions is that intel will push arm completely out of the tablet market in the next 4 years, with smartphones to follow by 2020. that would kind of suck because with intel in a monopoly position things will certainly geyt a lot more expensive, but i just can't seem to find any way out for arm, unless they either get a better architecture or get some really good chips using this one for the next many years
AnonD-29613, 16 May 2013No bias is needed to see through the bullshit on that Youtube video. The author speeds up his ... moreWhat kind of argument is that?
Look at my links and you'll clearly see that Clover trail Z2760 has less punch than 2012 Exynos.
Numbers are there, category by category.
Had Windows supported ARM instruction set, you'd see ARM chips running Windows easily.
As for the video..i can only say my Galaxy S3 does the same, and i see no lag and stutter.
Oh and, you heard of Clovertrail +?
The more powerful variant, i.e. the Z2580 intended for Android phones?
You can find it in TWO phones..one Lenovo and one ZTE phone, that is.
Now If that doesn't tell you something, I don't know what will.
AnonD-96269, 16 May 2013Ugh, I sensed some Intel bias and lack of knowledge right away, and seems I was right.
Watch... moreNo bias is needed to see through the bullshit on that Youtube video. The author speeds up his playback testing to, perhaps, make up for the choppy performance that can be seen in the beginning of the show. Really, that proving anything? Miniapps now qualify as proper multitasking?
"If you still think that Clover trail is better than those..."
I don't know what you consider better or worse, but I do know Cover Trail runs full fledged Windows.
Andrei, 16 May 20131. That article was made before clover trail was even released, and it's alcking any kind of a... moreOh and, to clear out all the subjectivity, let the numbers speak. Here, the Exynos 4(Galaxy S3) vs Atom Z2760:
Andrei, 16 May 20131. That article was made before clover trail was even released, and it's alcking any kind of a... moreUgh, I sensed some Intel bias and lack of knowledge right away, and seems I was right.
Watch this video.
From 4:17, see how much stuff ARM runs on Android at the same time.
And this is my Galaxy S3, running two HD videos with two different players plus 2HQ videos online..and opening and running 4 videos online at the same time with under 50% CPU load.
..and thats all with the old Exynos!
The Octa is at least double as powerful and Snapdragon 800, even more.
If you still think that Clover trail is better than those, well then I have nothing left to say to you.
AnonD-96269, 15 May 2013Atom Medfield/Clover trail is a DISASTER.
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/2... more1. That article was made before clover trail was even released, and it's alcking any kind of actual data. It's just a presumption, and a bad one I might add. Fast forward to the present, this chip runs w8 reaaally fluently(check on the internet, the asus Me400C(one of the cheapest w8 tablets) can run not 1, not 2, but 4 1080p movies at the same time, 2 of which are played in IE10 desktop in flash player, 1 in wmp and 1 in the metro movies app snapped to the side and it still doesn't lag at all,and cpu usage is at about 70%. You can't even try something like that on any other tablet os or smartphone os because you can't multitask. That sucks), has same battery life or even better than arm chips and it's just a better choice overall. now if intel would just improve the graphics performance and double the cores(as it will this holiday) than this would be the best tablet chip on the market
2. Of course nobody uses atom on android for now, and it's not because it sucks, it's because the app selection isn't all that good because of compatibillity issues, that's the only problem.
AnonD-90736, 15 May 2013You really are desperately clutching at straws aren't you ? All of those you have mentioned ha... moreThis is why comparison is silly, people try to compare potatoes against tomatoes, and come saying potato is better because french fries sell better than salad, it's clearly a trend, regardless of the fact that everyone needs salad here and then.
Mobile versions of apps don't count until they do the same things the desktop versions do, at least in terms of raw power.
One last thing, Sony called, said the PS Vita is not a smartphone and its graphics are inferior to laptops anyway.
AnonD-96269, 15 May 2013"How is it that the 2 cores of the Ivy Bridge blow away the 8 Cortex cores"
Fist ... more"...two 17-75W chip cores vs four 5-15W chip cores...
"...two cores that are on a TWICE LARGER chip than the whole Octa core chip..."
Power consumption and size is an issue for all devices, smartphones, laptops, desktops. As it is, the ratio of watts x performance on ARM processors might be all well and good but in raw power the laptop can eat a smartphone for breakfast. The fact that it's larger and has more energy input is irrelevant. I'm not raising an Intel flag, or saying the x86 architecture is better or more efficient.
The fact remains that the two devices shine in different areas and this kind of comparison is futile, particularly up until multitasking and more powerful apps can appear on smartphones.